Retraining our Brains to Thrive: Chronic Conditions, Pain, Trauma and ADHD
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This week's guest is Ashok Gupta, who has dedicated his life and career to supporting people through chronic illness and trauma and helping them achieve their potential.
Ashok suffered from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome around 25 years ago when he was studying at Cambridge University. Through neurological research, he managed to get himself 100% better. He then set up a clinic to treat others and published the well-known neuroplasticity “limbic retraining” recovery program and app known as the Gupta Program in 2007.
He has published several medical papers, including randomized controlled trials on Long Covid, ME/CFS, and fibromyalgia, showing that the treatment is effective, and he is continually researching these conditions
On this week's ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast, Ashok and Kate speak about:
- Ashok's Chronic Fatigue story and recovery
- Aspects of your surroundings that can affect chronic diseases
- The importance of calming the nervous system
- The body's fear response system
- How your early childhood experiences or trauma can impact your fear response
- Nature vs nurture on the brains development
- Neuroplasticity and retraining our brains to thrive
- How your fear and threat response could interplay with ADHD
- Ashok's program to work on your neuroplasticity
I speak about my conversation with Dr Jessica Eccles on this episode; here is the link if you'd like to listen back.
Here is the ADHD Nervous System Regulation Series I mentioned in the episode
Look at some of Kate's ADHD workshops and free resources here.
Kate Moryoussef is a women’s ADHD Lifestyle & Wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity, and clarity.
Follow the podcast on Instagram here.
Follow Kate on Instagram here.
Find Kate's resources on ADDitude magazine here.
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Kate Moore Youssef:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Kate Moore Youssef:Here's today's episode.
Kate Moore Youssef:Today, I am absolutely delighted to have a guest here who I think is going to be a fascinating conversation.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've got Ashok Gupta here.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now, ashok suffered from ME or chronic fatigue syndrome about 25 years ago when he was studying at Cambridge University.
Kate Moore Youssef:And through neurological research that he conducted, he managed to get himself 100% better.
Kate Moore Youssef: as the Gupta program, back in: Kate Moore Youssef:And since then, he has published several medical papers, including randomized controlled trials on long Covid ME and CFS and fibromyalgia, showing that the treatment is effective.
Kate Moore Youssef:And he has continually researching these conditions.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I really wanted Ashok here on the podcast because I know that so many of this community do suffer and have been challenged by a lot of these conditions.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so to be able to get to the root and understand it more, to be able to feel a bit more positive about the outcomes and being able to get support is what I hope will get out of this conversation.
Kate Moore Youssef:So, Ashok, welcome to the podcast.
Ashok Gupta:Thank you so much.
Ashok Gupta:It's a delight to be here.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:So first of all, I mean, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your own story, what happened to you, and kind of how this all began for you, the research into this.
Ashok Gupta:Sure.
Ashok Gupta:So like many of us who are helping others with these types of conditions, it all started with my own experience, my own suffering that I went through, and then wanting to then help others when I learned some new things that helped me.
Ashok Gupta:So this started in the mid-90s when I was studying as an undergrad at Cambridge and I was a young man.
Ashok Gupta:I had my whole life ahead of me.
Ashok Gupta:I was energetic and, you know, I certainly probably did suffer from anxiety.
Ashok Gupta:And I then got some kind of virus and thought, okay, I've got a virus.
Ashok Gupta:No Problem.
Ashok Gupta:The virus went away, but my health, my physical health seemed to deteriorate faster and faster and faster to the point at which I couldn't concentrate on the words on a page.
Ashok Gupta:I suddenly found myself supremely exhausted.
Ashok Gupta:Mentally, physically, emotionally.
Ashok Gupta:At my worst moments, I had to crawl to the bathroom and a whole set of new symptoms would come on.
Ashok Gupta:I'd get swollen glands, I would get aches and pains in my body.
Ashok Gupta:I would sleep for 12 hours, and yet I'd feel even more exhausted when I woke up.
Ashok Gupta:And none of this made sense to me.
Ashok Gupta:So then I went to my doctor and they said, look, we, we don't know what this is.
Ashok Gupta:We don't know what to call it.
Ashok Gupta:We have no treatment for it.
Ashok Gupta:You might have it for the rest of your life.
Ashok Gupta:Goodbye.
Ashok Gupta:And that was just like a brick wall in front of me.
Ashok Gupta:And that spurred me on to really understand what these conditions are and what causes them.
Ashok Gupta:And I made a contract with the universe at that time.
Ashok Gupta:And I said, if I can just get myself well, I will dedicate the rest of my life to helping others with these conditions because they are so severe and so much suffering is going on.
Ashok Gupta:And so I then came across brain neurology and started studying that and found that really interesting and started understanding what may be going on in my own brain that was causing this condition.
Ashok Gupta:And in an ad hoc way, I retrained my brain, got myself 100% well, and then opened up a clinic to treat others.
Ashok Gupta:And since then, we've obviously published medical papers, we've had studies, and we've got an app as well.
Ashok Gupta:So, yeah, that's been my journey from my own experience and now supporting thousands around the world with these types of chronic illnesses.
Kate Moore Youssef:Wow.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, I'm listening to that story and it gave me sort of, you know, real chills because first of all, I've got someone very close in our family who had a very similar story.
Kate Moore Youssef:And she was probably, you know, 19, 20, and we've gone through this whole process as well with her, and I'm really looking forward to sharing this conversation with her.
Kate Moore Youssef:She has gone through different types of programs and help and therapy, but still she has bad, bad times.
Kate Moore Youssef:You talk about neuroimmune conditioned syndromes.
Kate Moore Youssef:Can we break that down so people understand what these are?
Kate Moore Youssef:And I know for a fact that a lot of people listening might relate to some of them.
Ashok Gupta:Yeah.
Ashok Gupta:So we have so many mysterious modern diseases that mainstream medicine doesn't have any treatment for really the so reliable effects.
Ashok Gupta:So I think the neuroimmune so neuro means the brain, immune means obviously our immune system.
Ashok Gupta:And we notice now that many people are suffering from these types of conditions, like chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, where there's pain in the body in addition to immune symptoms, long Covid where people have Covid but they have lingering effects.
Ashok Gupta:So that's kind of neuroimmune type conditions and then sensitivity reactions.
Ashok Gupta:So more and more people are suffering from mold illness, chemical sensitivities.
Ashok Gupta:And in general, in the population we're seeing more allergies, food sensitivities.
Ashok Gupta:Now you know, what is going on?
Ashok Gupta:Why is that?
Ashok Gupta:And then another area is pain.
Ashok Gupta:So a lot of people having pain syndromes and then finally autonomic effects.
Ashok Gupta:So that's pots dysautonomia, those types of illnesses which we're seeing on the rise as well.
Ashok Gupta:So all these mysterious illnesses are related, I believe, in terms of their underlying components and the underlying reasons behind them.
Ashok Gupta:And we call them conditioned syndrome.
Ashok Gupta:So neuroimmune conditioned syndromes, nics.
Ashok Gupta:So I believe all of these different conditions, the reason they share symptomatology is because they involve the brain.
Ashok Gupta:So the neuro, they involve the immune system.
Ashok Gupta:They are conditioning effects.
Ashok Gupta:So what I mean by that is the brain learns something new and therefore it learns to overreact and over respond.
Ashok Gupta:That's the conditioning part of it.
Ashok Gupta:Conditioning just means learning it's learned to over respond.
Ashok Gupta:And yeah, syndrome is the idea that rather than saying this is the definitive symptom that defines it, syndrome means there's a whole set of symptoms that is unique to each patient.
Ashok Gupta:Now I often find, are we talking about a mold patient with chronic fatigue, or is it a chronic fatigue syndrome patient that has mold?
Ashok Gupta:Right.
Ashok Gupta:Where is the dividing line?
Ashok Gupta:And it's because these are syndromes, a collection of symptoms unique to each person.
Ashok Gupta:And so we treat these nicks through a very different way, which is this brain retraining, realizing that ultimately it is in the brain.
Ashok Gupta:And you know, as you talk about neurodiver divergence, we discussed earlier, didn't we, that actually if you look at people with adhd, you look at people with autism, you look at people with hypermobility syndrome, they've all got some commonalities in terms of presentation, in terms of things that may be going on in the brain.
Ashok Gupta:And we call it neurodiversion because we understand that ultimately the root cause is something that's slightly different in the brain that's causing that symptomatology downstream.
Ashok Gupta:And I believe that that actually makes It a risk factor for these other types of more chronic diseases that we heal.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, absolutely fascinating.
Kate Moore Youssef:And you know, the way I've kind of seen this, because I'm not a doctor and because it's not been sort of explained to me in the same way that you've just explained, and we were just saying off camera that we had Dr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Jessica Eccles on the podcast, who is a specialist and research expert, I would say, in hypermobility, and we sort of discussed it on that episode.
Kate Moore Youssef:But the way I've kind of always perceived how these conditions show up alongside neurodivergence is inflammation, stress, trauma that has been sort of internalized.
Kate Moore Youssef:And, you know, whether that's through our nervous system, through our neural pathways, where there's this heightened sense of danger.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've been hypervigilant and maybe there's been a specific situation, a specific trauma that.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we've sort of like gone into.
Kate Moore Youssef:Into shock on our nervous system's responded or we've just never felt like we quite fitted in.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we've never been able to operate on the same, in the same way as neurotypical people or with the same energy or work in the same capacity.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so I've always felt that there's just something wrong which has constantly been sort of re.
Kate Moore Youssef:Internalized and held and suppressed and masked.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that is very often when I see people coming with fibromyalgia, chronic pain, chronic fatigue, that there's.
Kate Moore Youssef:It seems to be a reaction.
Kate Moore Youssef:Obviously there's external situations and there's also genetic factors at play.
Kate Moore Youssef:Would you say?
Kate Moore Youssef:Is that a basic way of being able to understand why we're seeing a lot of these nicks alongside neurodivergence?
Ashok Gupta:Yes.
Ashok Gupta:And I would like to present a hypothesis in terms of how we look at it and what may be the connection between all of this.
Ashok Gupta:So let me take the analogy of a bucket.
Ashok Gupta:So imagine that our ability to handle stress, and that's physical stress, emotional stress, mental stress, spiritual stress, relationship stress, is this bucket.
Ashok Gupta:Yeah.
Ashok Gupta:And what happens is we are born.
Ashok Gupta:I'm sorry, we have a certain bucket that depends on various factors in terms of our capacity to handle stress.
Ashok Gupta:And this actually starts in the womb.
Ashok Gupta:So we know that how stressed our mother is whilst we're in the womb, impacts on the factory setting of our brain, especially a part of the brain called the amygdala, which is all to do with our threat perception and threat response.
Ashok Gupta:And we know that that is compromised in ADHD and also in autism.
Ashok Gupta:We know the amygdala is overreactive in autism as well and also in hypermobility.
Ashok Gupta:So that I believe is the common factor is what is the factory setting of that threat response system in the brain.
Ashok Gupta:And that is impacted by our gestation period.
Ashok Gupta:It's impacted by the birth experience itself.
Ashok Gupta:But many people don't realize that actually the birth experience, how long it takes and how traumatic it is, impacts on the brain's perception of danger.
Ashok Gupta:And then of course, the biggest impact is the first five to seven years of life.
Ashok Gupta:So how did the child feel in the presence of their parents, siblings, caregivers, etc.
Ashok Gupta:Did they feel safe, did they feel nurtured?
Ashok Gupta:Or at the other scale, was it trauma with a small T, trauma with a big T?
Ashok Gupta:Was there abuse anywhere along that scale?
Ashok Gupta:But even a perception that I'm not taking care of or the world is a threat can be enough.
Ashok Gupta:So even a childhood illness can create that sense of in heightened threat perception and that then continues through our teenage years and that's when we might start seeing then some of these neurodivergent aspects.
Ashok Gupta:So obviously with hypermobility it's difficult to say that may be more genetic, but certainly with ADHD and the autism aspects, at what stage does that then become nature and nurture?
Ashok Gupta:Where do those two align and meet in early childhood years to then create those differences and effects in the brain?
Ashok Gupta:And I believe at the core of it, it's the brain now is more protective and therefore over detects threats in our environment.
Ashok Gupta:And if you think about it, that can actually explain a lot around autism, but also around adhd.
Ashok Gupta:Because if the brain's primary driver is threat perception or what do I need to be aware of to defend it?
Ashok Gupta:Can't focus on one thing at a time because if it does, it is ignoring other potential threats that may be in our environment and therefore needs to switch fast in order to maintain that awareness.
Ashok Gupta:So it could be that is ADHD actually a response and I'd love your thoughts on that because you'll be the expert there.
Ashok Gupta:But is actually ADHD a response to needing to be more aware of threats in the environment and therefore not focusing on one thing at a time or just being needing to be aware of multiple things at the same time so that can then create the risk factor in the brain that when we're older and a new threat comes along?
Ashok Gupta:Yeah, so just, sorry, just let me take a step back, I'm getting ahead of myself.
Ashok Gupta:So we went back to the bucket analogy.
Ashok Gupta:So we've got all of these threats that have Been perceived in our environment as we were when we were younger, which then shrinks the bucket.
Ashok Gupta:So our ability to handle threats and stress shrinks as a result of a background in trauma.
Ashok Gupta:But the second effect, and I think this is really interesting, is the physical threats that we experience.
Ashok Gupta:So toxins in our food, pollution around us, household cleaning products, all of these things also go into the bucket and impact on threat perception and may have neuro neurological effects as well.
Ashok Gupta:And then thirdly, the sociological effects, the emotional effects of family dynamics.
Ashok Gupta:We've talked about the trauma as well, but it can be other effects that are going on in our lives as we're growing up.
Ashok Gupta:And it obviously can be genetic effects as well.
Ashok Gupta:So this combination of nature and nurture in our earlier years then creates this perception of threat and how big this bucket is.
Ashok Gupta:So if the bucket's very big, our capacity to handle stress is okay.
Ashok Gupta:But if it's small, we will become more sensitive to the environment, whether it be emotionally sensitive, physiologically sensitive, and biologically sensitive.
Ashok Gupta:So when a threat does come along, and that threat can be an emotional threat.
Ashok Gupta:But let's take in this example, a physical threat.
Ashok Gupta:So we're talking about an infection, bacterial, viral threat, mold exposure.
Ashok Gupta:The brain now thinks, hey, I didn't have capacity to handle this extra threat.
Ashok Gupta:I need to over respond to this threat.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Ashok Gupta:And even once I fought it off, maybe it's still present.
Ashok Gupta:So therefore, the brain gets conditioned and then learns to over respond to these threats in the environment.
Ashok Gupta:And that then might be the connection between childhood experiences, neurodivergent categorizations, and then going on to having physical, chronic illnesses.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, it's very well explained.
Kate Moore Youssef:I think the only thing that I would maybe sort of argue with is I definitely believe that neurodivergence is genetic, that we're born with it.
Kate Moore Youssef:Sort of neurologically, it's there.
Kate Moore Youssef:But like you say, the nature that, the nurture, whether, like you say, we've had trauma in our early years, how we've been brought up, chaos, dysfunction, our family life, our socioeconomic situation, how we've been schooled, parented, all these different factors can then either exacerbate the symptoms, or we're able to live life relatively sort of on an even keel until unfortunately, like you say, this bucket then gets smaller.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we're seeing this specifically with women right now who are hitting burnout because the demands of life are just so much.
Kate Moore Youssef:We're this sort of generation who are working pretty much full time, parenting, maybe looking after elderly parents.
Kate Moore Youssef:Menopause is kicking in and that's exacerbating our ADHD symptoms.
Kate Moore Youssef:And all the external, you know, just the way the world is right now, social media, there's just so much our capacity to be able to deal with.
Kate Moore Youssef:Maybe our resilience has got lower over after Covid.
Kate Moore Youssef:I think there's so many different factors, but what I believe is happening is that so many of the women that I'm seeing who have previously kind of just about got through life, and maybe they've had chronic fatigue, maybe they've had burnout cycles, maybe they've noticed their nervous system sort of, you know, always being on sort of a hypervigilant level.
Kate Moore Youssef:Anxiety has always been there, but something's just tipped.
Kate Moore Youssef:Tipped them over.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that could be a family, you know, like a grief divorce.
Kate Moore Youssef:Very often it has been sort of.
Kate Moore Youssef:Post Covid, things have sort of come to the surface.
Kate Moore Youssef:So it's being able to understand, I guess, ourselves and how we've always been, you know, looking back at childhood and understand where those factors have come into play, where those traumas have happened, big little T traumas, and now how we want to move through life feeling calmer, more energized, more regulated, more fulfilled, being able to choose, choose the.
Kate Moore Youssef:The way we want to live without all the added pressures that we are right now.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I do see the correlation, I wonder, with things like fibromyalgia and chronic pain, are you seeing sort of similar patterns in your practice?
Ashok Gupta:Yes, we are.
Ashok Gupta:And I think it's great.
Ashok Gupta:This discussion is, you know, groundbreaking because it's actually where we are experts in different areas, but we're seeing the convergence of this and seeing where the risk factors are.
Ashok Gupta:And we're definitely seeing a higher potential preponderance of people with autism or being on the spectrum or certainly with adhd, hypermobility as well, and seeing all of those as risk factors.
Ashok Gupta:And just to go back to your point, I definitely agree with you that there are.
Ashok Gupta:There's a strong genetic component to many of these different conditions, neurodivergent conditions.
Ashok Gupta:And as you say, it's whether it gets exacerbated to the point at which it then interferes with normal life.
Ashok Gupta:So there's probably a lot of people who have that genetic predisposition who, for whatever reason, because of all these other influences, the toxic influences, the emotional influences, never really go on to manifesting the symptoms of that that then would interfere with daily life.
Ashok Gupta:But if there are things that happen in our childhood and whatever those exposures are, mental, physical, emotional, they then become that nurture aspect that then exacerbate and make it interfere with just being able to live life normally.
Ashok Gupta:Those both factors are supremely important.
Ashok Gupta:And I think that what we are seeing is that once again this, this idea of the amygdala as a central point, if we have that increased threat perception and threat detection and threat processing, that means that the delicate balance of our immune system is compromised so it can over defend.
Ashok Gupta:And the question I always like to ask people is what is the biggest question of all?
Ashok Gupta:Why are we here?
Ashok Gupta:Right.
Ashok Gupta:Big philosophical question, why are we here?
Ashok Gupta:But at some level, we are here because over millions of years of evolution, this brain and this nervous system have learned to adapt to our environment, survive and pass on our genes to the next generation.
Ashok Gupta:And a core part of that, core part of survival is threat detection and being able to survive in a dangerous world.
Ashok Gupta:And so our system is primed for that.
Ashok Gupta:That's its number one priority.
Ashok Gupta:It doesn't care about your well being.
Ashok Gupta:It doesn't care about whether you're happy.
Ashok Gupta:It cares whether you survive.
Ashok Gupta:And so what happens is as we live and now we're being brought up in a more and more physically, emotionally, biologically dangerous world, the system itself now starts prioritizing survival and therefore can get stuck in these loops of over defensive responses over survival, which from a genetic perspective and a survival perspective and an evolutionary perspective is absolutely the right thing for our brain to do.
Ashok Gupta:It's just that it doesn't feel good to us.
Ashok Gupta:And so therefore this is what's so fascinating about brain retraining.
Ashok Gupta:Brain retraining is saying our brain is doing what it thinks is best, but it just needs updating and retraining to what is best for us.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Ashok Gupta:And that's where this, the secret source is.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And this is what I wanted to get onto because I'm hugely passionate about neuroplasticity, about understanding how we can either overwrite or retrain our neural pathways.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I think with ADHD we've been given very little help and support.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, in the past, over the years, it's always been sort of a pharmaceuticals, take medication and goodbye.
Kate Moore Youssef:Whereas now I just, I hope that the future is, this is neuroplasticity.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's understanding how our brain's made up so we can reprogram it and choose different thoughts, choose different feelings.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so would you say that we are, you know, with neuroscience almost exploding now and the breaking it down and people understanding neuroscience, maybe from TikTok, Instagram, whatever that is, but would you say that this potentially Is the future to helping with these conditions?
Ashok Gupta:Oh, absolutely.
Ashok Gupta:I think it's the future.
Ashok Gupta:I think the exciting thing is that traditional medicine is focused on what is measurable and what is a hardware problem.
Ashok Gupta:Right.
Ashok Gupta:So, you know, I like splitting into software and hardware.
Ashok Gupta:So traditional medicine says, right, something goes wrong with your car, let's fix the engine, let's fix the light, let's fix the door.
Ashok Gupta:But in modern cars, what tends to go wrong is the electrical system, the nervous system, the information system.
Ashok Gupta:And modern medicine got some great.
Ashok Gupta:I don't want to put down mainstream medicine.
Ashok Gupta:There's got some great approaches, but ultimately a new approach is required for the wiring for the electrical system.
Ashok Gupta:And that is where neuroplasticity comes in.
Ashok Gupta:And it's very difficult for drugs to target our neuroplasticity or to change the training or the programming of the system itself.
Ashok Gupta:And that's where these approaches, where it's almost like, I mean, the most equivalent would be when someone's rehabilitating from a stroke.
Ashok Gupta:So imagine someone's had a stroke, now you can't give them more and more drugs.
Ashok Gupta:They have to relearn some new neural pathways to regain control of an arm.
Ashok Gupta:Let's say.
Ashok Gupta:Let's say they were damaged to the brain and they can't move their limbs.
Ashok Gupta:Right.
Ashok Gupta:So they now need to rehabilitate, relearn, create new neural pathways or strengthen existing neural pathways.
Ashok Gupta:So we already have an element of that in medicine, but now it's saying, let's apply that to so many different neurological disorders, to emotional disorders, and we can then see direct effects in the brain as a result of that.
Ashok Gupta:So I think that neuroplasticity is absolutely the future of so many different illnesses.
Ashok Gupta:I say 60 to 70% of the illnesses that present in a doctor's surgery cannot be sufficiently dealt with by traditional medicine and actually require a brand new approach.
Ashok Gupta:And that is the promise of this.
Ashok Gupta:So my Hope is in five, 10 years time, you go to your doctor with one of these chronic diseases and actually they prescribe neuroplasticity first, rather than it being something people find 10 years later, you know, after exhausting all other avenues.
Ashok Gupta:So, yeah, that is the future.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:So tell me a little bit about your program, what it's based on, what it does, and I guess what you're seeing, I mean, breakthroughs and where people begin and where they end.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.
Ashok Gupta:Yeah.
Ashok Gupta:So our program is a home study course, so we wanted to make it super easy for people to do.
Ashok Gupta:And it was based on my one on one work for about over a decade, working with patients and really understanding what works.
Ashok Gupta:So it's delivered as an app or an online program and there's lots of videos people can watch and there's lots of audio exercises and people go through that brain retraining and they also have weekly webinars with myself and something which has been a game changer, some called daily Guptasise, which are daily zoom calls with our coaches on nervous system regulation and brain retraining, which makes it super easy and in fact very easy for people with adhd because if they think that, okay, the idea of sitting down and watching a program and applying it is not something they're able to do.
Ashok Gupta:Just coming on a zoom call is much easier.
Ashok Gupta:And they know that we're going to take care of you and take you through the exercises and that's how it's delivered.
Ashok Gupta:And the main aspects of it are three Rs, the three Rs of the program.
Ashok Gupta:So number one is regulating the nervous system, relaxing the nervous system.
Ashok Gupta:And we know obviously that's a core feature of adhd.
Ashok Gupta:And therefore this is all about what tools and techniques can people use.
Ashok Gupta:So we're not dogmatic, say it has to be this tool or this technique, but certainly we use things like somatic retraining, breathing techniques, meditation, visualization, whatever it is that works.
Ashok Gupta:Learning to calm the nervous system.
Ashok Gupta:Because if we don't calm the nervous system, the brain is not neuroplastic.
Ashok Gupta:So this is an interesting outcome of neuroscience is that our brains are less open to change if it's stimulated or overstimulated or stressed.
Ashok Gupta:Which makes sense because when we're in that survival state in stress, the brain doesn't want to learn anything new.
Ashok Gupta:It's just trying to protect.
Ashok Gupta:So we need to regulate the nervous system.
Ashok Gupta:The second R is the brain retraining.
Ashok Gupta:Retraining the brain.
Ashok Gupta:And that's the core techniques.
Ashok Gupta:And we have a special seven step process that people go through which is based on the science of change.
Ashok Gupta:And it's physically because if you try to shift something in the brain, it's like Einstein said, or paraphrasing Einstein, you can't use the same thinking to change something that created it in the first place.
Ashok Gupta:And in a similar way, if you try to think your way out of this, it's not going to work.
Ashok Gupta:You have to physically get your body moving.
Ashok Gupta:And therefore we get have a seven step process where people step through different steps and communicate and become aware of their different parts of their brain and then use ultimately visualization as well.
Ashok Gupta:And that's just one example of a technique.
Ashok Gupta:I said we've got somatic brain retraining.
Ashok Gupta:We have something called the accelerator, which is an accelerated process.
Ashok Gupta:All these different tools people experiment with and see what works for them to calm the brain down and shift this response that's causing this illness.
Ashok Gupta:And finally, the third arm of the program is reengaging with joy.
Ashok Gupta:So this is all about how can we make sure that people stay well because there's no point getting well and then having another trigger in your life which brings all the symptoms back.
Ashok Gupta:So how do you keep your nervous system calm for the rest of your life?
Ashok Gupta:And we do a lot of parts work there and self awareness techniques to support that.
Ashok Gupta:So those are the three R's of the program.
Ashok Gupta:And as I said, they're delivered through an online process.
Ashok Gupta:And yeah, we're getting some great results with people.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'd love to hear what you've sort of seen, maybe some of the more extreme cases of someone coming to you who I presume, I mean, from what I've seen, there's a lot of desperation because there's been a lot of invalidation, a lot of dismissal from conventional doctors.
Kate Moore Youssef:And again, I don't want to put down western medicine or conventional medicine because I know that they do a huge amount of good in acute situations.
Kate Moore Youssef:But when it's long term, more chronic conditions where sometimes there's no answers and it is all a bit ambiguous, people just kind of feel a bit abandoned and a bit kind of like, we'll just go, go and do some yoga or go and, you know, take some walks or something, or go and have CBT therapy.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I wonder like, what have you seen when people come and kind of finally they feel heard and they feel listened to and validated and what kind of progress?
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, how long does it take as well, through this program, our core.
Ashok Gupta:Unique feature is that we have a really compassionate approach because we know that people have gone through a lot of suffering.
Ashok Gupta:They've not been understood or validated even by their own families sometimes.
Ashok Gupta:And the number one starting point is for people to feel like they can relax.
Ashok Gupta:We're going to take care of you now.
Ashok Gupta:It's a whole ecosystem of support and that's really, really important.
Ashok Gupta:So the Daily Gupta size, for instance, the daily Zoom call has been great for people because if they're isolated and they feel alone, they're coming on a Zoom call with 300 other people on there and realizing I'm not alone with this.
Ashok Gupta:There are other people and we can mutually support each other.
Ashok Gupta:So that's been fantastic.
Ashok Gupta:And then obviously we have the coaches that support people.
Ashok Gupta:Now, some of the more extreme cases we've had, I always use this case because it's the one that sticks in my mind the most, is we had a guy from New Zealand who was suffering from fibromyalgia for about 30 years.
Ashok Gupta:Yeah.
Ashok Gupta:And he was in his 80s, his early 80s.
Ashok Gupta:So you can imagine when you're in your 80s, you're already experiencing symptoms just from old age, never mind what might be chronic disease.
Ashok Gupta:And he's really despondent.
Ashok Gupta:And he worked on our program diligently and after about three to six months, he suddenly got 80% better, 85% better.
Ashok Gupta:And I said, what are you going to do now?
Ashok Gupta:And he said, well, I'm going to travel the world.
Ashok Gupta:I'm going to do all the things that I want to do all my life.
Ashok Gupta:And he went and did that.
Ashok Gupta:And that was amazing to me because I thought if a man in his early 80s can retrain his brain, when we think that perhaps the brain's not retrainable anymore, we can all do it.
Ashok Gupta:That is the amazing promise of neuroplasticity, that it's something inherent within our brain.
Ashok Gupta:It's just about the right techniques to access it.
Ashok Gupta:I think that's the key thing, is what are the techniques that can power through and make sure that we can retrain.
Ashok Gupta:And then with Long Covid, we have hundreds of patients with Long Covid.
Ashok Gupta:And because people have had it for a shorter period of time, sometimes we can get miraculous recovery within weeks from Long Covid.
Ashok Gupta:Now, obviously others, it takes months.
Ashok Gupta:So we say to people it's a six month program because we don't want people to become complacent.
Ashok Gupta:You know, if you've had an illness for years and years, if not decades, it maybe you can retrain within weeks, but maybe it will take months, maybe it'll take over six months.
Ashok Gupta:Therefore, we want people to really dedicate their time and energies to it for a considerable period of time to make sure they get the maximum benefit.
Ashok Gupta:And unfortunately, that can be one aspect of the program which is that you see, if people have fear, if they think that it's not going to work, then they're less likely to be motivated to engage with it.
Ashok Gupta:And that's why belief and trust is so important to build up that trust.
Ashok Gupta:And that's what we're constantly working with.
Ashok Gupta:Patients say, just come on our webinars each week.
Ashok Gupta:Trust that it's going to work, otherwise you're going to quit too soon.
Ashok Gupta:The brain was getting the message.
Ashok Gupta:It just needed more time.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm interested to hear, have you had validation from mainstream doctors or is there a way that this can be prescribed by doctors who are just not able to refer on to.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, in my head I'm thinking, well, you'd be referred to maybe a pain management clinic or you'd be referred to a neurologist or an endocrinologist.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then you kind of hit a bit of a wall.
Kate Moore Youssef:So are you finding that some doctors are now much more open minded and being able to prescribe this kind of option when the other, the other options haven't worked?
Ashok Gupta:It's step by step.
Ashok Gupta:Certainly the last few years it's really taken off.
Ashok Gupta:I think neuroplasticity.
Ashok Gupta:Ten years ago we were one of the only people doing it and now it's becoming more popular.
Ashok Gupta:And I think in the mainstream medical profession it's slower because people are just opening up to these ideas because their system is based on the reductionist philosophy, which is something's wrong with the body, we can target it at the micro level, at the chemical level.
Ashok Gupta:Yeah.
Ashok Gupta:And this is something which is much more holistic, it's much more in the neurology, it's much more electrical system.
Ashok Gupta:And therefore it takes time to shift the medical model.
Ashok Gupta:But certainly many doctors informally recommend our program.
Ashok Gupta:But where we're seeing a much bigger impact is with functional integrative doctors, chiropractors, nutritionists, they're seeing the benefit of their protocols working alongside our protocols and attacking it from two directions.
Ashok Gupta:And they've certainly been more open to it because they understand the idea of a functional illness where the system itself is maladaptive and responding inappropriately.
Ashok Gupta:And then what can we do to support that?
Ashok Gupta:So nutrition and gut advice can be great.
Ashok Gupta:But doctors also realize that there's something fundamental that's going on because someone can heal and get better through supplements and medications.
Ashok Gupta:But then the moment they have a stress, wham, all the symptoms come back and the existing protocols are no longer having an impact.
Ashok Gupta:And therefore the neuroplasticity approach is gaining more and more popularity.
Ashok Gupta:And we have literally almost 5,000 different doctors and practitioners around the world now recommending our program.
Ashok Gupta:They're part of our database and that's really encouraging as well to see that.
Ashok Gupta:So that's really our aim is to educate the mainstream more, but that always comes through medical research.
Ashok Gupta:So something we're prioritizing are these randomized controlled trials.
Ashok Gupta:And we've got some great data already, but that if we can get larger scale trials and the medical professional depression can't ignore that.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:Well, tell me a little bit about the research that you've done and what's coming out of that research.
Ashok Gupta:So we've now conducted three randomized control trials using our treatment and two of them, probably the most important ones, the ones that were done recently.
Ashok Gupta:So we did one on fibromyalgia and we found that the Gupta program compared to a control group program, which was a relaxation program.
Ashok Gupta:The Gupta program reduced fibromyalgia scores by 40% within eight weeks.
Ashok Gupta:And we're a six month program, so eight weeks is great.
Ashok Gupta:And there was zero effect in the control group.
Ashok Gupta:And we halved pain, we increased functional capacity by 50% in eight weeks and we halved depression and anxiety.
Ashok Gupta:The great result, very small results in the control group.
Ashok Gupta:And then with long Covid randomized control trial, that was two days, two years ago, we found that the Gupta program was compared to a wellness program.
Ashok Gupta:So this wellness program had diet, sleep, supplements, activity.
Ashok Gupta:So it was a proper program.
Ashok Gupta:So it was a proper control group.
Ashok Gupta:And we compare these programs and after 12 weeks, the Gupta program was four times more effective at reducing fatigue and exhaustion and twice as effective at increasing levels of energy in patients with long Covid, which was an amazing result because when do you ever get a clinical study whereas a 400%, you know, response.
Ashok Gupta:And that was a published study as well.
Ashok Gupta:And then recently we've just published a clinical audit on our patients.
Ashok Gupta:So this was about three to 400 patients.
Ashok Gupta:And we found that across 14 different conditions, patients had anywhere between a 60 to 116% improvement in their symptoms after three months.
Ashok Gupta:And that's a published study.
Ashok Gupta:People can read that.
Ashok Gupta:And that was for fibromyalgia, long Covid, you know, Lyme disease, pain syndromes, a whole host of different conditions.
Ashok Gupta:And that's what really then supports the hypothesis that a lot of these conditions are related and linked and ultimately this core process is targeting the brain and then the downstream collection of symptoms improves, no matter how we categorize these types of illnesses.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really so interesting because it's sort of solidifying the conversation I had with Dr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Jessica Eckel, who was amazing at identifying all the signs of hypermobility and Ehlers Danlos syndrome.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we talked all about that and how we can spot it and be more aware.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then at the end of the conversation, I Said, well, what can we do now?
Kate Moore Youssef:How can we help ourselves?
Kate Moore Youssef:And she's well, that's the problem.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, we, right now, the treatment that we know works is sort of breath work, meditation, relaxation, specific new nutritional choices, sleep.
Kate Moore Youssef:It almost seems like a bit of an antidote to the way society is going over the past 20, 30 years, that it's just been do more, be more, succeed, achieve.
Kate Moore Youssef:And, and I wonder, like what you said at the beginning was this is almost like a reaction to what's, what's going on and we're sort of just been told to survive and the only way we can survive in this very fast paced world is to just keep going, keep going.
Kate Moore Youssef:And if we're more sort of prone to the sensitivities, maybe being neurodivergent, that this is just not working with our bodies and our immune systems and nervous systems.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, the fact that we're seeing chronic stress, you know, so, so prevalent and we're seeing burnout is just sort of part and parcel of being a busy person.
Kate Moore Youssef:People come to me and just say, I'm so overwhelmed, I'm so frazzled, I can't sleep.
Kate Moore Youssef:I just feel like I just want to pack everything in.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's not showing me that we're living in a society that is, is right for us as humans, but specifically for neurodivergent humans.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I think what you're saying is very powerful.
Kate Moore Youssef:My, my big question is, is, and I, and I, it upsets me because I do feel that there's always such a privilege when it comes to all this holistic health care and their functional medicine and nutritionists and osteopaths and all these amazing services and supports and unfortunately so many people can't afford it that we're restricted by finances.
Kate Moore Youssef:Is there a way that people can access what you do at a lower level?
Kate Moore Youssef:How does that work?
Ashok Gupta:So we certainly have a free trial so people can come on, watch some of the videos, listen to some of the audios and benefit initially from those types of approaches.
Ashok Gupta:And what we've tried to do is keep the price as low as possible for our treatment compared to lots of other treatments out there.
Ashok Gupta:So our treatment is $400, which is about, I think 320 pounds or something like that for a whole year's package of treatment.
Ashok Gupta:So we think that's very reasonable.
Ashok Gupta:We've kept the cost as low as possible.
Ashok Gupta:And within that people get the videos, the audios, they also get the weekly webinars with myself and the daily sessions.
Ashok Gupta:So we've calculated for a dollar a day, you're essentially getting daily support, weekly support, tons of information, a support group.
Ashok Gupta:So there's a lot of information that people get.
Ashok Gupta:And for us, until we get the large scale phase three trials, we give a one year money back guarantee on that treatment so people can use the treatment.
Ashok Gupta:If it doesn't work for them, then after six months and any time up to a year, people can return the program and get a refund and spend that money on something else.
Ashok Gupta:So we've tried to make that also a bit of a safety valve to reduce the risk of taking on a treatment like this.
Ashok Gupta:And in the future, our hope is that we get large scale phase three trials, we prove that this is effective with thousands of patients, and then this becomes prescribed on national health services around the world or becomes part of an insurance claim.
Ashok Gupta:And that is our aim, to make this affordable and accessible through primary health care.
Ashok Gupta:And that's the ultimate aim.
Ashok Gupta:And that can only be done through research.
Ashok Gupta:You know, that is the ultimate part of it.
Ashok Gupta:But for us to be able to provide it, we obviously have that, that cost there.
Ashok Gupta:And yeah, yeah, I hope that people will see the benefits of this.
Ashok Gupta:Realize it's kind of low risk.
Ashok Gupta:I mean you can, you know, Certainly in the US you could spend 3 or $400 just on one session with a clinician.
Ashok Gupta:Yeah, frankly.
Ashok Gupta:So we hope that it is still reasonable for people to take something on like this.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's fascinating and a lot of people will be, be very interested.
Kate Moore Youssef:Can you tell me a little bit about how people can read more information, learn a little bit, maybe, you know, go for the free trial.
Ashok Gupta:Yep.
Ashok Gupta:So they can come to our website, which is gupta program.com so G U P T A program.com and they can also go to App Store or Play Store and download the free app, start retraining their brain straight away with some of the initial tools and techniques that we have there and watch some videos.
Ashok Gupta:So that's what I advise people to do.
Ashok Gupta:And I think what we've also found is that a lot of people have been using our program for things that we never expected.
Ashok Gupta:So things like for instance, ocd, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, people have found benefit from using our program for that as well as physical conditions and certainly offline.
Ashok Gupta:I'd love to explore with you with adhd.
Ashok Gupta:Could there be aspects of our program that could support people with that?
Ashok Gupta:And are there perhaps some studies we can do?
Ashok Gupta:Because from more and more I'm learning about ADHD myself, I do feel that the kinds of approaches we have could really benefit people with that and I'd love to see how that could work.
Ashok Gupta:So, yeah, that's how people can find our program.
Ashok Gupta:They can take the free trial and allow people to experience it.
Ashok Gupta:And something that I think a lot of your viewers would find beneficial is the Daily Gupta size.
Ashok Gupta:So the first part of it is free to anybody.
Ashok Gupta:So you don't even need a paid subscription.
Ashok Gupta:You can join the Daily Gupta size, the healing meditation part of it, which, which is some somatic work, some breathing, some meditation, and that can just help you regulate your nervous system without even needing to pay anything.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, fantastic.
Kate Moore Youssef:Well, I'm very much.
Kate Moore Youssef:I talk about nervous system regulation all the time on the podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I've got a four part workshop series that I did, all based on polyvagal theory and adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I just saw there was so much interconnection of being able to help our ADHD symptoms and help lessen them and I guess sort of lessen the heightened response that we have in day to day life, which then exacerbates our ADHD symptoms as well through nervous system regulation.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I just think we're really are at the beginning of all of this right now and it's fascinating to talk to you, Ashok.
Kate Moore Youssef:So thank you so much for your time and I really look forward to connecting again in the future because I think there's lots more to be discussed.
Ashok Gupta:Yes, thank you so much.
Ashok Gupta:It's been real fun.
Kate Moore Youssef:I really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
Kate Moore Youssef:If you did and it resonated with you, I would absolutely love it if you could share on your platforms or maybe leave a review and a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Kate Moore Youssef:And please do check out my website, ADHD womenswellbeing.co.uk for lots of free resources and paid for workshops.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm uploading new things all the time and I would absolutely love to see you there.
Kate Moore Youssef:Take care and see you for the next episode.
