Drained and Depleted: Harness your ADHD to FUEL rather than deplete you

Kate: 00:01:11

Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

Kate: 00:01:14

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

Kate: 00:01:27

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

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In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Kate: 00:01:52

Here's today's episode.

Kate: 00:01:58

Today we have Cameron Gott.

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Now, he is an award winning ADHD coach, leaders and business owners and he got his start in secondary education.

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mentoring adhd coaches since: 2006

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He founded the center for ADHD Coaching Excellence with fellow coach Tamara Rosier, who has also been on the podcast and she's coming back to talk about her new book.

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And Cam is now curious about ADHD and the role of emotions, motivation, leadership and living a life with less stress and more balance and equanimity.

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Is deeply committed to upholding excellence and integrity in the field of ADHD coaching.

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Can't wait to bring this conversation to you.

Kate: 00:02:51

Here's my chat with Cameron Gard.

Kate: 00:02:53

Cam, welcome to the podcast.

Kate: 00:02:55

I'm delighted to have you here.

Kate: 00:02:56

It's amazing.

Kate: 00:02:57

We've just been talking off camera and I quickly had to press record because you were giving me so much golden nuts, many golden nuggets, that it was important that we just kind of get Scott straight into the conversation.

Kate: 00:03:09

And I know that you were talking quite passionately about that kind of movement from understanding and awareness and seeing our ADHD finally and then saying, right, okay, how do we implement that change?

Kate: 00:03:24

And we will discuss lots of other things, I'm sure, in our conversation, but can we just discuss that?

Kate: 00:03:30

Because I think it's really powerful that I think a lot of people think, oh, okay, now I understand what's going on.

Kate: 00:03:35

Now I understand it's adhd.

Kate: 00:03:37

Like everything's just going to click into place, but unfortunately that's the easy bit, isn't it?

Kate: 00:03:41

And then we have to implement perspective, change, reflection.

Kate: 00:03:46

Can you tell me a little bit about, I guess, what you do when someone comes to you and says, right, I think I've got ADHD and the coaching that you kind of bring in from there.

Cameron: 00:03:56

That's a really good question.

Cameron: 00:03:58

It's so interesting.

Cameron: 00:03:59

It's like right here I have this ADHD and now things should just click into place and often that we forget that ADHD is still in play, the ADHD is still on board and that the ADHD is informing and it's not helpful at times to have ADHD to manage adhd.

Cameron: 00:04:15

That's destination thinking.

Cameron: 00:04:17

It's sort of like, right, we'll just go ahead and now I've got it and just it all fits into place and we have this thinking that it will just kind of solve itself or there is a place I can get to and everything will be fine.

Cameron: 00:04:31

This is something that happens with calendars.

Cameron: 00:04:34

It's like if, well the next six weeks is really rough but if I can just get to that clear time because I know there's that clear time, that's that hopeful planning, it's that destination where ah, I can let down and it's not going to be so exhausting.

Cameron: 00:04:48

And this is so fascinating to watch.

Cameron: 00:04:50

From the States, what's happening in the uk there's explosion of information and, and this is, it's really wonderful to see and watch.

Cameron: 00:05:00

But as you reach this point of awareness, like okay, I actually have this, this is actually a thing and it explains a lot that now the real challenge is to take that and as you said, to take that and apply that knowledge, to put it into practice and to create change.

Kate: 00:05:22

You mentioned the words performance, wellbeing and perspective work and having a relationship with change so we can move forwards.

Kate: 00:05:33

Because that's what coaching is all about, isn't it?

Kate: 00:05:35

It's like noticing, reflecting on the past, noticing where we are and then implementing change so we can move forwards.

Kate: 00:05:44

And with adhd, like you said just then, it's, it's that kind of like the conundrum or the irony of it is that sometimes our ADHD stands in our way, doesn't it?

Kate: 00:05:55

And blocks us and it almost we create these sort of self sabotaging loops where we kind of go right this time it's going to be different.

Kate: 00:06:02

Like you said about the diary, I kind of like cringed because I'm in that place right now of like in six weeks my diary is going to be free and then I'm, then it's all going to be okay.

Kate: 00:06:12

But just having that recognition, that awareness of it, like that's where we hear about burnout and we're going to kind of focus on women specifically today and maybe women who are wanting to make change, women who are working in leadership roles and how they can fulfill, I guess, what they want to be doing in life and not be derailed by their ADHD all the time.

Cameron: 00:06:36

So, and that here's the interesting thing is that in coaching I am paying attention to where their attention is.

Cameron: 00:06:44

And why do people come to coaching in the first place?

Cameron: 00:06:47

They're coming to address a dilemma.

Cameron: 00:06:49

They've identified a pain point.

Cameron: 00:06:51

And it's come to this realization of this pain point is impacting my life and I haven't figured out how to address it.

Cameron: 00:06:59

And so I'm going to ask for help.

Cameron: 00:07:02

And that's really hard for someone with ADHD is to ask for help because that can mean sort of a sign of weakness or failure, that this idea that we have to figure out our problems by ourselves.

Cameron: 00:07:14

So they're coming with this focus on the performance that's not happening.

Cameron: 00:07:19

And they're coming to me saying, you're going to help me with my performance, whether it's in the house, whether it's at my work, whether it's in my relationship.

Cameron: 00:07:28

I've realized that ADHD is impacting my performance.

Cameron: 00:07:31

And so that's something we do in coaching is we look at sort of setting goals and helping them identify the change they want to have.

Cameron: 00:07:41

So two things in particular is there's this focus on performance and can I get some relief from this pain point?

Cameron: 00:07:50

Can I make the negative thing go away?

Cameron: 00:07:53

And in coaching it is a strength based approach of yes, we want to relieve that pain point, but we want to start to think about what does a future look like where there's positive change, how can we bring in change?

Cameron: 00:08:06

And utilizing values and strengths and performance.

Cameron: 00:08:10

Yes, but also some other aspects.

Cameron: 00:08:13

And the other aspects are really about general well being and self care.

Cameron: 00:08:17

How do you feel about yourself?

Cameron: 00:08:20

What is your ratio of negative thinking to positive thinking?

Cameron: 00:08:23

Because we can have a dreadful, dreadful inner critic that just will hammer us and there is no one there to stop them from doing that to get us in.

Cameron: 00:08:35

Come on, get in gear, get going.

Cameron: 00:08:38

Who do you think you are?

Cameron: 00:08:40

So this, this narrative can kind of be there and we're not even aware of it.

Cameron: 00:08:47

Kate.

Cameron: 00:08:47

So this, developing this awareness of the adhd, but then who you are as an individual moving through the world and to start to have perspective and step back and consider, yes, there's performance, but there's also other things.

Cameron: 00:09:01

And so what I do is I help people who they have an impact.

Cameron: 00:09:07

They have to have an impact, it's not an option.

Cameron: 00:09:11

But the impact they have is in ways that is positive and negative.

Cameron: 00:09:17

And with adhd, it's very difficult to see it, to be fully aware of it.

Cameron: 00:09:23

And they're not necessarily fully aware of the energy expenditure.

Cameron: 00:09:28

So can I help them have an impact in the world to add value, to create changes, but also at less of the cost, the cost that goes into masking or showing up or working to some expectation that may be real, that may be constructed in their brain.

Cameron: 00:09:50

Because with expectations, we will take them up to the top level, the 100th floor perfectionism, or we will just bristle at expectation and have the rebellious, you know, just go against authority route.

Kate: 00:10:10

Yeah, yeah.

Kate: 00:10:12

I think what you're, you're saying is, is really so relatable.

Kate: 00:10:16

But I wonder what you think, you know, when you say that you work with women who want to make an impact.

Kate: 00:10:21

The phrase that you used to think was they have no choice to make an impact.

Cameron: 00:10:25

No, they don't.

Kate: 00:10:25

Because our ADHD is driving us.

Kate: 00:10:29

It's this relentless motor.

Cameron: 00:10:30

Well, and if I can, if there's the adhd, but there's also this compelling reason or that's a cause that may or may not be related to adhd.

Cameron: 00:10:40

It's like looking at the whole person.

Cameron: 00:10:41

So, yes, there can be the ADHD that is propelling, and especially for the hyperactive, impulsive, high energy they have to expend.

Cameron: 00:10:53

But I see it with my inattentive ADHD clients, too, that have avoidant behavior.

Cameron: 00:10:59

And so what I mean, there in particular is, there is a cause that they have to do that.

Cameron: 00:11:08

It is just.

Cameron: 00:11:08

They see it and it has to happen.

Cameron: 00:11:11

They see that no one else is doing it.

Cameron: 00:11:12

And this may be adhd.

Cameron: 00:11:14

Kate, this is the interesting thing is people get hung up on what is ADHD and what is not, but this.

Cameron: 00:11:19

There's some change that they see that needs to happen in the world.

Cameron: 00:11:23

And so they see it because in part, no one else is seeing.

Cameron: 00:11:29

What they're seeing now is that adhd, possibly.

Cameron: 00:11:32

It's certainly their divergent wiring, the ability to sort of see around corners or see things before others.

Cameron: 00:11:40

I have a script writer of a client who they write scripts and they notice.

Cameron: 00:11:45

It's like my stuff that was relevant, that I was doing 10 years ago is relevant today out in the world.

Cameron: 00:11:51

And so it's like they're before their time and sometimes.

Kate: 00:11:55

But can I ask why do you question whether it is or isn't adhd?

Kate: 00:12:00

I mean, there is, like, you say that divergent thinking, would you not always correspond that to adhd?

Kate: 00:12:07

Because for me, I see that as our hyperactive brains just constantly going and seeing and hypervigilance and noticing and spotting trends.

Kate: 00:12:16

But I kind of relate to the ADHD brain.

Kate: 00:12:20

But I'd like your take on that, actually.

Cameron: 00:12:23

So the group that I work at work with is, it's this.

Cameron: 00:12:28

And part of the coaching is that the ADHD management is a means to an end.

Cameron: 00:12:35

It is in the service of some greater, bigger thing.

Cameron: 00:12:40

And so this is the power of context that they have things to do.

Cameron: 00:12:45

They didn't come, they're not coming to me to just manage their adhd.

Cameron: 00:12:49

They're coming to solve a dilemma that is bigger than themselves.

Cameron: 00:12:54

And I'll point to you because I went back and I scrolled back to 178 episodes to your trailer and I could hear, I could hear that you were going to do something about this to educate the population about having ADHD that was there, that drive, that vision.

Cameron: 00:13:21

So having this vision that, yes, it might be related to adhd, but it's really about educating and helping people feel better about themselves.

Cameron: 00:13:30

And so this is just the leaders that I work with, both male and female, is this kind of, I have this desire to do something, but the tremendous energy that goes into it and how the ADHD can just sort of be these sea anchors slowing them down.

Cameron: 00:13:47

And I won't get into the, well, wait a sec.

Cameron: 00:13:49

It's a superpower thing.

Cameron: 00:13:50

Yes, it is a superpower.

Cameron: 00:13:51

It's a superpower and it's a super sea anchor.

Kate: 00:13:55

Drainer.

Cameron: 00:13:56

Drainer.

Cameron: 00:13:57

But if we can start to identify where our energy is going and back to that, well, what is adhd?

Cameron: 00:14:03

And what is not is that people get to this awareness place and it's like, okay, right, I need to label everything and identify what it is, what it isn't.

Cameron: 00:14:12

I need to get my people on board.

Cameron: 00:14:14

I need to get buy in from everyone in my family, everyone in my organization and check in.

Cameron: 00:14:19

Do you think this is it?

Cameron: 00:14:20

Do you think this is it?

Cameron: 00:14:21

And meanwhile, they're staying here at this place of awareness and they're not taking the steps moving forward to create change for themselves and to effectively manage the adhd.

Cameron: 00:14:31

They keep bumping back into these old patterns.

Cameron: 00:14:35

So starting with identifying the habits that are not working for you so often, we're like, okay, I've got my ADHD diagnosis.

Cameron: 00:14:43

And it's like, and last night I started a class for individuals who are trying to improve their relationships.

Cameron: 00:14:49

It's like, I'VE got to improve my relationship.

Cameron: 00:14:51

I got to improve my relationship and I know that I have to fix my ADHD and do better habits and da, da, da, da, da.

Cameron: 00:15:00

And they're focused on new habits and it's that, yes, but it's identifying the patterns and the habits that are not working for us.

Cameron: 00:15:09

So there's a couple in play.

Cameron: 00:15:12

It's the optimizer.

Cameron: 00:15:14

It's the utilization of every moment in your day is the optimizer the maximizer.

Cameron: 00:15:20

There's the pleaser, where they're going around and you're taking care of everyone else's needs but your own.

Cameron: 00:15:27

There's the avoider.

Cameron: 00:15:29

It's just overwhelming.

Cameron: 00:15:30

It's too overwhelming.

Cameron: 00:15:31

I don't know where to take a first step.

Cameron: 00:15:33

There's the monitor, kind of like monitoring a situation or really vigilant, but then inability to again move forward.

Cameron: 00:15:43

And then there's the controller of like, I gotta get control over this thing.

Cameron: 00:15:47

And wading into that messy area of change that's a threat to stasis and things being as they are.

Cameron: 00:15:57

And so again, when we're kind of gripped with fear or uncertainty, so we're all clenched up and then we resort back to the habits that are not necessarily helping us.

Cameron: 00:16:08

So in coaching, we're identifying those habits that are not necessarily helping, identifying those energy drainers, identifying the communities where then this sort of balance of both support and challenging because either or is not good.

Cameron: 00:16:27

These people that come to this coaching class last night, they'll have their spouse like, ah, it's the adhd.

Cameron: 00:16:33

I'm going to give you an ultimatum.

Cameron: 00:16:35

Fix this or else.

Cameron: 00:16:37

Yikes, right?

Cameron: 00:16:38

Talk about a way to just absolutely freeze out somebody to give them an ultimatum to change.

Cameron: 00:16:44

And then here's this person who is supposedly a support, just saying change or else.

Cameron: 00:16:50

So here's this support so close to you that is, you know, I won't accept you until you fix this thing.

Cameron: 00:16:58

So challenging and not supportive, that's no good.

Cameron: 00:17:02

But then there's the supportive without challenging.

Cameron: 00:17:05

Know what?

Cameron: 00:17:06

Hey, you're okay as you are.

Cameron: 00:17:09

And then, well, what if as you are is not who you want to be?

Cameron: 00:17:14

And so just support without challenge is this acceptance of this.

Cameron: 00:17:19

You know, I hear it all the time of, yep, you know, it's.

Cameron: 00:17:23

ADHD is a death sentence.

Cameron: 00:17:25

And it's like, it's every struggle that I have is ADHD and here I am.

Cameron: 00:17:29

And so it is.

Cameron: 00:17:30

The stuff that I do is not today.

Cameron: 00:17:33

It's not a, a hack that's going to happen today.

Cameron: 00:17:36

That's going to change your life.

Cameron: 00:17:38

It is hard work and it takes time.

Cameron: 00:17:40

Because someone's had ADHD for 47 years, they're not going to get a strategy or a hack that's going to change the way they engage in the world in two days.

Cameron: 00:17:50

It's more like six or seven months.

Kate: 00:17:53

Yeah.

Kate: 00:17:53

And that kind of goes against like on wiring because we just want things done.

Kate: 00:17:57

Don't we just want like the impatience part of our ADHD is just like, right, great, know what it is, let's fix it.

Kate: 00:18:03

And I'd love to focus on what you said about, because I talk a lot about on the podcast about like the change makers and the impacts and the leaders.

Kate: 00:18:11

And someone messaged me not that long ago and said, well, can you speak to the people who are the ones that are constantly overwhelmed, who don't get things done?

Kate: 00:18:20

And we're not driven by our hyperactive kind of restlessness.

Kate: 00:18:23

And we're not the ambitious ones.

Kate: 00:18:25

We're genuinely just trying to get out of bed and tidy our houses and look after our children.

Kate: 00:18:30

And we are struggling because we are depleted by just living with adhd, not because we're trying to change the world and launch businesses and start podcasts.

Kate: 00:18:42

Where would you go with that?

Kate: 00:18:44

Because I know obviously medication is super helpful for things like that, but with coaching, how do you work with people who are just in a, in a state of overwhelm and freeze?

Cameron: 00:18:56

That's a good question.

Cameron: 00:18:57

You know, I really appreciate you turning the attention to this because I think there is too much focus on achievement and impact and leaders and talking about their hyper focus and their ability to do great things.

Kate: 00:19:14

It's shaming for people, isn't it?

Kate: 00:19:16

When you hear about exactly what you say, ADHD has been their driver.

Kate: 00:19:22

Yes, it might have been part of lots of other life problems or relationship problems or parenting problems, but if that hyperactivity isn't there and they just really struggle with the rest of the adhd, it is important that we focus on that.

Kate: 00:19:41

And I don't think I do that in the podcast enough.

Kate: 00:19:44

So I'm going to hold my hands up now and say, let's talk about that.

Cameron: 00:19:47

Yeah.

Cameron: 00:19:48

So I was diagnosed with inattentive adhd.

Cameron: 00:19:52

So I don't have the hyperactive piece, the getting out of bed, the I.

Cameron: 00:19:56

For I think most of the 90s, I was in my head thinking, you know, what's the point?

Cameron: 00:20:04

What am I doing questioning this sort of not seeing the way forward, not knowing I had adhd.

Cameron: 00:20:09

And even when I was diagnosed with ADHD and I started to take medication and it improved things.

Cameron: 00:20:14

I still couldn't answer that question of what am I working for?

Cameron: 00:20:17

What's.

Cameron: 00:20:18

What is sort of.

Cameron: 00:20:19

Because my brain is sort of just moving in all these different direction.

Cameron: 00:20:23

So I'd like to use an example of someone I worked with.

Cameron: 00:20:26

She's a music teacher and she came to me and because she said, you know, I go to school, I show up, I give 110% to everything I do.

Cameron: 00:20:39

I come home and I collapse at 4 o'clock in the afternoon and I can't do anything.

Cameron: 00:20:45

So this going in, she has to teach her music, she has to enroll people into an elective.

Cameron: 00:20:52

Right?

Cameron: 00:20:52

This is not like English class where kids come in.

Cameron: 00:20:56

This is an elective where she has to go and recruit students.

Cameron: 00:21:01

So this marketing aspect of how do you get kids to come in and want to play guitar?

Cameron: 00:21:08

So that was the pain point of coming to this place of I get up, I drag myself into school.

Cameron: 00:21:15

I am just burning the candle at both ends during school.

Cameron: 00:21:21

I come home and I'm completely depleted.

Cameron: 00:21:24

So here she is.

Cameron: 00:21:25

She's having an impact but she's not really aware of it.

Cameron: 00:21:28

Her energy level is just so much.

Cameron: 00:21:31

And so the interesting thing is that she doesn't see herself as a leader.

Cameron: 00:21:39

She's not seen herself as a leader.

Cameron: 00:21:40

She's seen herself as just someone who is really struggling and this thing is just beating her down and she is wanting answers and she is wanting change.

Cameron: 00:21:49

So starting to look at then how she navigates her day and these patterns where the first thing we did was look at how can we start to save some energy.

Cameron: 00:22:00

And that right there when she said 110% for everything.

Cameron: 00:22:04

So she is going into these administrative meetings and hyper, trying to hyper focus and like pay attention.

Cameron: 00:22:11

It's like she's giving 110% to a committee meeting.

Cameron: 00:22:15

It's like she's not saving it necessarily for the time with the kids where she's teaching the guitar.

Cameron: 00:22:22

So this sort of learning of first of all, it's not this moral failing number one because it's this sense of I am not worthy.

Cameron: 00:22:32

I need to work 150% more than everyone else.

Cameron: 00:22:36

I have to show up more because of this lack of self confidence and doubt.

Cameron: 00:22:42

So back to this idea of there's a commitment to coaching Kate, but there's also this moving to a place of you are deserving even though you're.

Cameron: 00:22:50

If you're not a leader and getting out and a captain of industry and making Things happen and you're struggling to get out and help the kids get off to school.

Cameron: 00:22:59

You are deserving, deserving, deserving of support.

Cameron: 00:23:04

And that this ADHD does not define who you are.

Cameron: 00:23:10

Your experience is not defining who you are.

Cameron: 00:23:13

And starting to think about I am deserving of change and having a different life is number one.

Cameron: 00:23:19

So back to the music teacher.

Cameron: 00:23:20

Is that recognizing when we could sort of find that volume on energy expenditure and could we dial it down for some engagements and bring it up for some others?

Cameron: 00:23:34

Here's the one other thing I'll say is that it's finding this sort of the fundamental dilemma that she was facing.

Cameron: 00:23:40

Instead of music teachers, what do they do?

Cameron: 00:23:43

They have recitals.

Cameron: 00:23:44

So she's standing there in front of parents and her back is to the parents and she's up there and she's cringing and she's feeling judgment, she's feeling seen and it's just, it's a full on assault on her.

Cameron: 00:23:58

Here she is, she can't be present with what the kids have learned.

Cameron: 00:24:02

They're doing an amazing job and she is exposed.

Cameron: 00:24:05

So she's putting all her energy into masking again, more energy there to start to do this perspective work around.

Cameron: 00:24:15

Is it about visibility and exposure or is it about something else?

Cameron: 00:24:20

Why does she do this work?

Cameron: 00:24:21

Why is she drawn to go in and overcome these challenges every day to do this work?

Cameron: 00:24:27

She could quit, but she's not, she is compelled to do this work.

Cameron: 00:24:33

And so we go into there the values of that and it's like the love of music, the love of children and how music connects people.

Cameron: 00:24:41

And that was the central theme that sort of switched for her of how she could go in.

Cameron: 00:24:45

And it was all of a sudden not about her.

Cameron: 00:24:48

And this is not overnight, this is over a period of months, but the next music.

Cameron: 00:24:52

She saw the music recital coming up and she signed up for me in September because the music recital was in December.

Cameron: 00:24:59

I was like, I have to have a different experience with this.

Cameron: 00:25:02

So when she was able to make it about the kids, I'm here to facilitate them and the parents are not here to look at me, they're here to look at their kids and to enjoy.

Cameron: 00:25:14

So she sort of flipped the switch on this high associative, divergent thinking of instead of having it inundating her and putting her on absolute edge and elevating her nervous system.

Cameron: 00:25:27

So she just was in fight flight the whole time to oh, what's really going on?

Cameron: 00:25:33

The energy I'm feeling here is the connection and the love and that energizes, doesn't it?

Cameron: 00:25:39

Take an energy drainer and turn it into an energy provider.

Cameron: 00:25:43

Finding this sort of way forward into creating change is more than just checking boxes or trying to optimize your day.

Cameron: 00:25:55

The other thing is then kind of looking at things other than time and time optimization.

Cameron: 00:26:02

So she looked at expectation and she always thought the expectation was up here.

Cameron: 00:26:08

So paying attention to that, paying attention to emotion and where how emotion comes into play in the sense of this is emotional regulation.

Cameron: 00:26:18

I am big on turning emotional regulation.

Cameron: 00:26:21

Emotions into a resource versus this thing that we just have to regulate.

Cameron: 00:26:27

They are a resource that help us anticipate what is coming through our day.

Cameron: 00:26:32

Right when we this morning I walking around and my wife and my child are looking at me and they're like, you seem a little nervous.

Cameron: 00:26:41

I'm like, yeah, I'm nervous.

Cameron: 00:26:42

I'm about to go live with Kate.

Cameron: 00:26:44

And it's.

Cameron: 00:26:45

That nervousness is actually a good thing.

Cameron: 00:26:48

Kind of gets me going.

Cameron: 00:26:49

And it's like, all right, that anxiety is okay.

Cameron: 00:26:54

What happens with ADHD is the anxiety then goes from a 2 to an 11 and then we're up here and we're in fight flight.

Cameron: 00:27:01

And this is how to bring that down.

Kate: 00:27:04

It's very empowering what you're saying.

Kate: 00:27:06

And I love that story about the music teacher because there's probably, I mean, I'm just kind of like thinking, you know, out loud.

Kate: 00:27:14

But I reckon that there was RSD there because she's there and her, the children's performance is reflective on her teaching.

Kate: 00:27:22

And so she's feeling judged, she's feeling ready to be criticized.

Kate: 00:27:27

And RSD has, is such an energy depleter because it's, it's there and we are feeling exposed.

Kate: 00:27:35

Like you said that she was feeling exposed, that she's ready to, you know, she wants to meet these parents high expectations.

Kate: 00:27:42

But maybe these parents expectations like look at my kid on stage and six months ago they weren't playing a musical instrument.

Kate: 00:27:49

Now look they're doing with a smile on their face and they maybe wouldn't have even noticed if there was a note out of place or anything.

Kate: 00:27:56

And it is that recognition of, okay, how am I going to reframe this situation?

Kate: 00:28:01

And I totally relate to her because everything I do and whether I'm doing workshops or webinars, interviews, new courses, I'm driven by an anxiety and a fear of letting people down or fear of not doing a good enough job or disappointing people.

Kate: 00:28:19

And it hijacks my nervous system.

Kate: 00:28:21

And every time I sort of launch a new kind of workshop series.

Kate: 00:28:24

I'm not, not doing this again.

Kate: 00:28:25

I'm just not doing this again because it really impacts my nervous system so much.

Kate: 00:28:30

And I think so many people can relate to it in different ways.

Kate: 00:28:34

Like whatever they commit to, they want to do it because they want to create impact.

Kate: 00:28:37

They want to do it because they want to see change or they're passionate, they want to help people.

Kate: 00:28:42

But we have.

Kate: 00:28:43

Is it at the detriment of our nervous system.

Kate: 00:28:45

And then we get annoyed because we want to do all this good work, whatever that is.

Kate: 00:28:50

But we are hijacked by this anxiety.

Kate: 00:28:54

And what I've learned and what I hope to sort of support, you know, people in my community, is that intentionality, like you say, is just noticing and seeing and being aware of.

Kate: 00:29:07

Exactly.

Kate: 00:29:07

Like you say, when she goes into the meeting with her energy, like, actually it's okay for me to just sort of sit back and just kind of let other people take the lead here.

Kate: 00:29:16

But where, where my passion and my motivation and my enthusiasm is.

Kate: 00:29:20

Yeah, let's, let's.

Kate: 00:29:21

Let's use that.

Kate: 00:29:23

And then I can take time to rest and decompress afterwards.

Kate: 00:29:28

That intentionality of where our energy is and where we work with the.

Kate: 00:29:34

Where we can kind of almost pull, you know, put down the accelerator and full throttle with awareness with maybe things in place afterwards.

Kate: 00:29:43

Yeah, we're going to have it at a free evening.

Kate: 00:29:45

Maybe the next day we're having a bit more of a chill day, and we can be in protective mode and preventative mode.

Kate: 00:29:53

So we're not being in reactive mode all the time.

Kate: 00:29:57

And using, like you say, that our emotions to navigate and guide us as opposed to constantly derail us.

Kate: 00:30:06

That's what's been the most helpful thing for me, I think.

Cameron: 00:30:09

Yeah, it's an interesting paradox.

Cameron: 00:30:12

There's so many paradoxes with adhd.

Cameron: 00:30:15

And we're always, like, looking for time, energy and attention.

Cameron: 00:30:20

It's like, I don't have enough time, energy and attention.

Cameron: 00:30:24

Individuals with adhd, they think that those are limitless.

Cameron: 00:30:31

They think time, energy and tension is.

Cameron: 00:30:33

They should have 150%.

Cameron: 00:30:34

They should be able to go 150% all the time.

Cameron: 00:30:37

So it's this.

Cameron: 00:30:38

The metaphor I use is the size of your plate, the size of your plate and what you can put on your plate, the things you can do.

Cameron: 00:30:46

And it's that we don't know where the edge of our plate is.

Cameron: 00:30:49

That's an ADHD thing to know what our capacity is.

Cameron: 00:30:53

So what do we do?

Cameron: 00:30:55

We either go small or go too big.

Cameron: 00:30:58

And so we are always over committing, overextending or because we've done that too much or we've gotten burned, we have burnout, then we don't, we don't put our toe in the water and we under commit.

Cameron: 00:31:13

And so this starting to kind of pay attention to.

Cameron: 00:31:15

First of all, we're.

Cameron: 00:31:20

This is the message of the whole superhero ADHD thing of like it's a, it's a superpower and I can.

Cameron: 00:31:26

It's just this amazing power source.

Cameron: 00:31:31

Yes, it can be, but it also.

Kate: 00:31:34

With limitations.

Cameron: 00:31:35

Yeah.

Cameron: 00:31:36

And so this recognizing that limitations are not a weakness.

Cameron: 00:31:40

You have a certain amount of time, energy and attention every day and starting to kind of think about how you distribute it, where it gets distributed and to really do this almost like an energy audit to consider.

Cameron: 00:31:55

And as you said, it's like if you're going to do a big push, then it's on the backside of that is do you have time to decompress, to recharge, to renew and that we are going along and we just don't pay attention to the size of our plate.

Cameron: 00:32:12

It's like, oh well, I need to build an apron and make my plate bigger and bigger.

Cameron: 00:32:17

Cam, that takes energy, that takes effort.

Cameron: 00:32:20

To come back to instead of trying to build out that plate to a larger dinner plate is to really think about the portions that you're putting on that.

Cameron: 00:32:29

Who's making demands.

Cameron: 00:32:30

And again with women, it's these demands in.

Cameron: 00:32:35

At home, in their relationship at work and this context, switching that, having to go from one role to another to another constantly.

Cameron: 00:32:45

And you go to work and you're about to do a presentation, then the school calls, right.

Cameron: 00:32:49

Something's going on at school.

Cameron: 00:32:50

And you have to switch that and this juggling and just so we sort of like juggle through the day to kind of keep this frenetic pace.

Cameron: 00:32:58

And that's not sustainable.

Cameron: 00:33:01

It's not sustainable.

Kate: 00:33:02

It's not sustainable.

Kate: 00:33:04

And just that pace of the task, switching the role switching and then remembering that there's like other things happening throughout the day afterwards.

Kate: 00:33:15

And it can get so much and it can get so overwhelming that sometimes we just want to make our lives small and we hold back and we limit ourselves and we limit our potential.

Kate: 00:33:26

And that's at the detriment to wanting to feel fulfilled and wanting to feel creative and like we are showing up in the world.

Kate: 00:33:34

And like you say, it's this paradox, this constant paradox.

Kate: 00:33:38

And I before this podcast, I before I was diagnosed, I had a podcast called the Ambitious Mum.

Kate: 00:33:45

And the ambitious mum for me was questioning constantly, why do I have all this ambition and restlessness and wanting to change the world and do so much in the world?

Kate: 00:33:55

But I also just want to be at home and have a small life and make my life easy and simple and distraction free and just focus on my kids and do a small job that doesn't have any expectations on me but doesn't feed my soul.

Kate: 00:34:10

And it was this.

Kate: 00:34:11

I mean, it sounds a bit kind of brandios to say, but it was like this big philosophical question that I wanted to get answered.

Kate: 00:34:19

And I was going to different experts and having conversations with therapists, and I couldn't get the answer, apart from when I got my ADHD diagnosis, which kind of did answer most of the questions.

Kate: 00:34:32

But I do feel that unfortunately for women, especially because the understanding of ADHD in women is so new and we've lived with it for so long, that the weight of it is, can be suffocating for many of us because we're still living this imbalance of society and we're still living and going through what all these expectations and pressures that were put on us as women.

Kate: 00:34:55

Right.

Cameron: 00:34:55

And I have a hot take, hot take is that men can have ADHD and women can't.

Kate: 00:35:00

Okay, explain.

Cameron: 00:35:01

Well, that it's again, these pressures of society.

Cameron: 00:35:05

And I see it over, I see it, my female clients telling me about these situations where they go in, if a man were to go into that situation, maybe scattered or flitting about, as you say, and it's like, well, he's creative, he's, you know, he's dynamic, he's an entrepreneur.

Cameron: 00:35:22

He's Richard Branson, you know, and as a woman goes in, she's like, it's questioned.

Cameron: 00:35:29

It's like, oh, that's not proper.

Cameron: 00:35:30

I mean, these sort of, these 19th century societal principles have been sort of carried along.

Cameron: 00:35:39

And what is that about?

Kate: 00:35:41

It's underpinning.

Kate: 00:35:42

It's still underpinning so much, even though we're in this, this moment in time where we're all ready to rid of it, you know, to let go of it, to just release it, but it's still there, confining us.

Kate: 00:35:55

And I always, I always say that I think we're the last generation, like my generation, women in their sort of 40s and 50s, who, I hope that sort of the women in their 20s and 30s now that are kind of like starting to build families and careers for themselves, there's less pressure that they're putting on themselves to show up in all these capacities.

Kate: 00:36:15

I think they're making choices where they don't have to be and do it all.

Kate: 00:36:20

I don't know.

Kate: 00:36:20

I could be speaking out of term and maybe we're still another generation away.

Kate: 00:36:24

I don't know.

Cameron: 00:36:25

No, you're absolutely right.

Cameron: 00:36:26

I mean it is happening and it's because of people like you who are not going to sit by quietly and sort of back to this.

Cameron: 00:36:36

Do not wait for permission from or wait for someone else to create the change for you.

Cameron: 00:36:41

Is to start to think about I'm deserving.

Cameron: 00:36:45

This is a dilemma.

Cameron: 00:36:46

This is a challenge for me.

Cameron: 00:36:48

This is a pain point.

Cameron: 00:36:49

And to start to articulate needs.

Cameron: 00:36:53

This does not have to be done by yourself.

Cameron: 00:36:56

So the partner who is frustrated and not understanding is start to ask for specific help in a specific area to delegate.

Cameron: 00:37:06

You know what would be very helpful is if you could do this for me and to start looking at this as a.

Cameron: 00:37:13

It's a team approach and if you have people who are constant doubters, constant judgers is to do some boundary work.

Cameron: 00:37:25

Here's the other thing with boundaries for us is boundaries are very difficult just like time, just like expectations.

Cameron: 00:37:31

But we have to figure out how to establish boundaries here of to say no thank you.

Cameron: 00:37:37

You know what?

Cameron: 00:37:38

Your constant judgment is not helping this situation.

Cameron: 00:37:42

It's not helping me.

Cameron: 00:37:43

And to either they step up and help or they step back a bit and finding those people who are going to be supportive but also challenging.

Cameron: 00:37:55

But it starts with the individual to say, you know what, I'm deserving of some change here and I'm going to start to advocate for myself.

Kate: 00:38:03

Yeah, yeah.

Kate: 00:38:04

It's really important that you.

Kate: 00:38:06

I think we recognize that that environment because some people unfortunately are just much more privileged in the sense that they might have a supportive husband, partner, wife, they might have money to fund for coaching, medication, diagnosis, they might have help with their kids.

Kate: 00:38:25

There's so many factors at play here where success can come easier or where it does feel like this ADHD is a weight and we're never going to come out of it.

Kate: 00:38:37

I really hope that through this conversation right now, just those pain points, those little nuggets of awareness that people can bring where if you want to listen back to this, this conversation and write down a few things where you are noticing like noticing the habits that you want to break, noticing the pain points, noticing those energy expenditures because not everyone can go, don't have one to one coaching and, and it's so powerful for adhd.

Kate: 00:39:04

I don't know any other difference, learning difference, mental health issue Whatever you want to call it that I think works so well, like coaching does with adhd, because it's progressive.

Kate: 00:39:18

Like we can, we can move forward with the acknowledgement of our adhd.

Kate: 00:39:22

That's not going anywhere.

Kate: 00:39:23

But we can find new ways, new paths, new strategies.

Kate: 00:39:26

And I just want to go to like, what if people are listening and kind of, yes, I would love to work with Cam.

Kate: 00:39:31

Like, what, what do you do?

Kate: 00:39:33

Like you take on new one to one clients.

Kate: 00:39:36

Are you training ADHD coaches?

Kate: 00:39:38

Tell us a little bit about what you're doing in the world right now.

Cameron: 00:39:42

Well, right now I'm doing.

Cameron: 00:39:43

It's.

Cameron: 00:39:44

I'm doing a lot.

Kate: 00:39:48

Are you listening to your own advice?

Kate: 00:39:49

That's the question.

Cameron: 00:39:51

My wife was like, when are we going to see you?

Cameron: 00:39:54

It was like, oh, there's an indication.

Cameron: 00:39:56

Yeah, I'm noticing that my plate is a bit full.

Cameron: 00:40:00

So I, I do a lot of teaching.

Cameron: 00:40:02

I was a teacher before I was a coach and so yeah, I love.

Cameron: 00:40:08

And sort of.

Cameron: 00:40:08

And I actually tried to.

Cameron: 00:40:10

Kate, it was really interesting.

Cameron: 00:40:11

I tried to kind of like fight the whole educating piece of sort of like, okay, I'm just coaching and you can't educate when you coach.

Cameron: 00:40:17

Right.

Cameron: 00:40:17

It's like, wait a second.

Cameron: 00:40:19

The education is a big part of this so that people understand what is actually going on.

Cameron: 00:40:25

So I do a lot of presenting and educating and so I will teach classes for both individuals with adhd and I do a lot of coach training.

Cameron: 00:40:37

So.

Cameron: 00:40:38

And it's.

Cameron: 00:40:38

I work for the Coach Approach Training Institute.

Cameron: 00:40:41

I've been with them for a long, long time.

Cameron: 00:40:45

And so that is a Level 2 ICF coach training program that I, that I'm a part of.

Cameron: 00:40:51

I also have started the center for ADHD Coaching Excellence with Tamara Rozier, who wrote the book your Brain's Not Broken.

Kate: 00:40:58

She's fabulous.

Kate: 00:40:59

She's been on the podcast.

Cameron: 00:41:00

Yeah, we're teaching a class right now based on the book and it's a beta right now.

Cameron: 00:41:06

And we're having so much fun with that.

Cameron: 00:41:08

And so we're going to be doing something, we're going to launch that for coaches that have had, they have some training already.

Cameron: 00:41:17

They've got their basic training and they're wanting to take their training to the next level.

Cameron: 00:41:21

And so we're really excited about bringing that out in the new year.

Cameron: 00:41:25

Melissa Orloff, who wrote the book on ADHD marriage, this is the coaching class that I do for her as a follow up to the ADHD partner taking the seminar.

Cameron: 00:41:38

And they get to the end and it's like, okay, now I have this information.

Cameron: 00:41:42

How do I put it into play?

Cameron: 00:41:44

That's a class that I teach.

Cameron: 00:41:46

I love what you said earlier about you don't have to work with a coach to create change.

Cameron: 00:41:50

You don't have to work with me to kind of navigate this place between awareness and change.

Cameron: 00:41:56

The ACO is a wonderful resource for that ADHD coaches organization that is a place where you can go and find a directory of qualified coaches.

Cameron: 00:42:08

So that's based in the States, but it is international and it's.

Cameron: 00:42:12

I love seeing individuals from the UK and all over the world coaches joining that and being a part of that.

Cameron: 00:42:20

I know there are organizations that are in the UK too.

Cameron: 00:42:23

So finding resources is so important.

Cameron: 00:42:26

Finding community that both supports and challenges coaching is something that you can do with a friend in the sense of like peer support and accountability, body doubling to kind of like, okay, let's do, let's get together and going to go to a coffee shop and do some work or meet get out of the house.

Cameron: 00:42:45

So have that thing to get out of the house.

Cameron: 00:42:47

So it's like to get out of bed because if you don't have something to get out of bed for, it's like, well, I'm just going to stay in bed because I got nothing lined up.

Cameron: 00:42:54

Sort of like having these activities and finding individuals to engage with.

Kate: 00:42:59

But I think this conversation has been incredibly helpful.

Kate: 00:43:02

I've loved talking to you.

Kate: 00:43:04

I think you have a huge amount to share share and, and what excites me is that there's a lot of people who are training to be ADHD coaches because this is what we need.

Kate: 00:43:14

We need them in the workplace, we need them in schools, colleges, we need them in women's health clinics.

Kate: 00:43:21

We need a lot more awareness and a lot more education because this has like opened a huge can and it's only just going to get bigger and the awareness is going to get bigger.

Kate: 00:43:31

But we do need that support.

Kate: 00:43:32

Support and that challenging as well.

Cameron: 00:43:34

It's one of the reasons this is one of my big areas of interest is the quality of ADHD coaching.

Cameron: 00:43:42

That's a concerning piece, but it's also addressable that when you take ADHD in coaching and kind of put them together in a Venn diagram, there's so much interpretation and that interpretation goes to misinterpretation, misrepresentation of both coaching and ad.

Cameron: 00:44:02

So there's the psychoeducation piece about what we do as coaches and something else that I do is it's educate about what is quality ADHD coaching, if individuals are listening here is to take your time really thinking about and interviewing different coaches.

Cameron: 00:44:19

And if someone is like they're going to offer something or promise something that seems too good to be true, it's likely.

Cameron: 00:44:26

So I think that's one of the things the gift that I was offering was basically what to look for in a coach.

Kate: 00:44:33

So yeah, I'm going to link back to that on the show notes so people will have that.

Kate: 00:44:38

Cam, thank you so much for your time.

Kate: 00:44:41

It's so appreciated.

Kate: 00:44:42

I'll make sure everyone's got your details and all the websites that you've just mentioned so they can go and have a little research themselves.

Kate: 00:44:50

But really appreciate your time.

Cameron: 00:44:52

Cam.

Kate: 00:44:52

Thank you.

Cameron: 00:44:52

I really enjoyed it.

Cameron: 00:44:53

Kate, thank you for having me.

Kate: 00:44:58

If you've enjoyed today's episode, I invite you to check out my brand new subscription podcast called the Toolkit.

Kate: 00:45:04

Now this is where I'm going to be opening up my entire library.

Kate: 00:45:08

My vault of information from over the years, my workshops, webinars and courses, my conversations with experts about hormones, nutrition, lifestyle and bringing brand new, up to date content from global experts.

Kate: 00:45:23

This is going to be an amazing resource for you to support you and guide you even more on more niche topics and conversations so you can really thrive and learn to live your best life with adhd.

Kate: 00:45:34

I'm so excited about this.

Kate: 00:45:36

It's the Toolkit on Apple Podcast and you get a free trial.

Kate: 00:45:40

Really hope to see you there.