A Burnout Guide for ADHD Women
🌟 My new book, The ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit, is available to preorder here 🌟
In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Claire Plumbly, a clinical psychologist specialising in trauma, early life stress, and burnout. Claire is the director of Good Therapy Ltd and the author of Burnout: How to Manage Your Nervous System Before It Manages You, recently released in the US as The Trauma of Burnout.
We explore the often-misunderstood nature of burnout, particularly among neurodivergent women, many of whom unknowingly operate in a chronic state of “high-functioning burnout.”
Claire brings her deep understanding of trauma-informed care and the autonomic nervous system to offer fresh perspectives on managing burnout, with practical tips and compassionate insights tailored for those with ADHD, autism, or high emotional sensitivity.
What You'll Learn:
- What high-functioning burnout looks like and why it often goes unnoticed in ADHD women
- The role of your nervous system in managing stress and preventing burnout
- How early-life trauma can influence burnout cycles later in life
- The role of the autonomic nervous system and vagus nerve in emotional regulation
- How to spot the early signs of burnout before it becomes overwhelming
- Why identifying internal pressures and unrealistic “shoulds” can help shift your mindset
- How to create daily habits that regulate your nervous system without overhauling your life
- The impact of a supportive community in to healing burnout (and how to find your people)
- The power of self-awareness to restore balance and tune in to what you really need
Timestamps:
- 02:00 - Understanding burnout: The impact on the nervous system
- 13:31 - Understanding trauma and ADHD
- 20:53 - Navigating burnout: Understanding external pressures
- 25:34 - Finding balance: The impact of work on personal connections
- 35:27 - Navigating self-awareness and burnout
- 40:12 - Exploring somatic therapy and ADHD
Links and Resources:
- Missed our ADHD Women’s Summer Series? Get the workshops on demand [here].
- Next ADHD Wellbeing Workshop: “Creating More Compassionate and Calmer ADHD Families, Parenting and Relationships” – June 24th @1.30pm. Book [here].
- Preorder my book: The ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit [here].
- Join the Waitlist for my new ADHD community-first membership launching in September! Get exclusive founding offers [here].
- Find my popular ADHD webinars and resources on her website [here].
- Follow the podcast on Instagram: @adhd_womenswellbeing_pod
- Follow me on Instagram: @kate_moryoussef
- Connect with Claire on Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn | TikTok, visit her Website or buy her Burnout Book
Exclusive Offer for Listeners:
This week’s episode is proudly sponsored by The Naked Pharmacy!
Discover natural, evidence-based supplements formulated by expert pharmacists to support your health and wellbeing.
Visit www.thenakedpharmacy.com or reach out to pharmacist@thenakedpharmacy.com with any questions.
Use code KATEADHD at checkout for:
- 10% off your first one-time order
- A massive 35% off your first subscription order!*
*Subscription discount reverts to a still-great 25% off for all future deliveries.
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Speaker A:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Speaker A:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Speaker A:Here's today's episode.
Speaker A:Today we're talking about a topic that I think so many people can relate to, but especially for those of us in the neurodivergent community.
Speaker A:And we're talking about burnout.
Speaker A:And I'm really happy to say that I have Dr.
Speaker A:Claire Plumley here and she is a clinical psychologist and director of Good Therapy limited, a psychological therapy center based online and here in the uk and her private practice specializes in trauma related issues.
Speaker A:And Dr.
Speaker A:Plumley has specialisms in early life trauma and of course burnout.
Speaker A:And she has an amazing debut book in the US it's called the Trauma of burnout.
Speaker A:And in the UK it is Burnout how to manage your nervous system before it manages you, which shows you how to harness the power of your nervous system.
Speaker A:Something which I love talking about despite the persistent demands of modern life.
Speaker A:And then when we are adhd, autistic both together, modern life feels even harder and more difficult to manage.
Speaker A:So I'm really happy to be talking about this.
Speaker A:So, Dr.
Speaker A:Clare Plumlee, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thanks for having me.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, I think this is such an important conversation for us to be having.
Speaker A:I talk about burnout a lot on the podcast, but I think to be very specifically talking about the trauma of it.
Speaker A:And you know, I speak to so many people in my community who have just accepted cycles of burnout as just sort of part and parcel of their life.
Speaker A:You know, they can look back from maybe late teens, you know, when they're in their 40s, 50s and 60s, and they just sort of see these cycles of burnout as just part and parcel of life that they've just had to deal with.
Speaker A:And I'm really hoping that through this conversation we're able to unpick burnout and hopefully create more awareness around those early signs and then use the R and the understanding of our nervous system to hopefully prevent, prevent these cycles from occurring.
Speaker A:So can you tell me a little bit about what it was for you that made you want to write a book specifically on burnout?
Speaker A:Do you have personal experience with this or is it just something you were just seeing continuously with your.
Speaker A:Your patients?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, both of the above.
Speaker B:So my background is that I worked in the NHS for quite a few years before then going into private practice.
Speaker B:And I experienced both in the NHS and when I set up my own business.
Speaker B:That high functioning burnout, where you're really kind of hitting all the markers of burnout, you're exhausted, you're disconnected, and you're struggling to kind of be as effective as you could be, both in that kind of paid NHS format, but then also when I was working for myself.
Speaker B:So it made me curious about what is it that causes this.
Speaker B:But also working.
Speaker B:I work in Taunton where there's quite a lot of medical staff who will come and see me in vets, for example, and all of these kind of professions really struggling with burnout.
Speaker B:I mean, it's everywhere.
Speaker B:It's not just in those professions.
Speaker B:And I realized that with my trauma training, I was using a lot of the same metaphors and what we call psychoeducation, understanding of the nervous system and the biopsychosocial model, which is how all those things fit together for clients who had come with kind of different traumas, but also with burnout.
Speaker B:And so I felt like there wasn't quite the book available that I would direct people to, and that maybe there was a place in the world for another book written by yours truly.
Speaker B:And that's why I put the proposal together to kind of bring that to people, because I think we've normalized stress to the point that people don't realize how.
Speaker B:How much its impact on the nervous system.
Speaker B:And this is where I draw the comparison in the book with trauma.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:I think what's really important is like, it feels kind of like a.
Speaker A:I hate that with this kind of.
Speaker A:This feel, but it's like a bit of a status, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's just we're so busy and we're so productive and we're so high achieving that we're now in burnout.
Speaker A:But actually, you know, burnout feels like a relatively new term, but I wonder, do you think.
Speaker A:It's always been there?
Speaker A:But maybe we've had.
Speaker A:We've not been able to understand it.
Speaker A:You know, back in, say, the 60s and 70s, we'd call it, you know, something maybe like burnout, a nervous, nervous breakdown or you know, that type of thing.
Speaker A:And I just wonder, is burnout a modern phenomenon?
Speaker A:Are we understanding it better or is it modern day life that has created the just normalizing this word.
Speaker A:Because burnout actually can be like a medical condition.
Speaker A:Like we can be hospitalized for this.
Speaker A:This is not something that you just kind of just need to sit on the couch and watch Netflix for an hour, you know, a weekend.
Speaker A:This is something that many people have to take, you know, a year out of work, they are bedbound.
Speaker A:So maybe we can understand a little bit about sort of the nuances of burnout so people can know whether this is something they have suffered with.
Speaker B:Yeah, and what you were referring to there is referred to as clinical burnout, where your body is forced to stop for you because you haven't been able to tune in or listen to the cues your body's been sending you, that there's a problem here, that chronic stress is just completely squashing you and making you not operate at top functionality.
Speaker B:And so clinical burnout can look different for different people.
Speaker B:But often that's where you're physically hitting some sort of quite serious problem.
Speaker B:You know, I've had people non epileptic seizures, for example, panic attacks, being unable to, to get out of bed, being unable to talk, find their words can be quite alarming and you can get cardiac problems.
Speaker B:Any pre existing kind of physical health issues can really flare up, you know, ibs, stomach ulcers, like, like migraines.
Speaker B:Like it can be really serious to get clinical burnout and really does take a while to recover from that.
Speaker B:Yeah, even, even longer than a year sometimes.
Speaker B:So I know that's a bit of a.
Speaker B:I don't want to scare Monger, but I think it's important that people know that the body isn't invincible.
Speaker B:It can't just carry on.
Speaker B:You know, you wouldn't expect your car to keep going without, you know, pumping up the tires and doing the MOT and all of that.
Speaker B:But we kind of expect that of ourselves sometimes.
Speaker B:And unfortunately it's a systemic issue.
Speaker B:We've kind of, you know, all the systems around us are responsible as well, so.
Speaker B:So I'm always trying to just make sure when we're talking about this, it's not just about something individuals need to kind of focus on, but we can do a lot by focusing on that.
Speaker B:Collectively, action will support systemic change as well.
Speaker B:But hopefully there are also leaders listening to your podcast who can make some systemic changes in those levels that individuals can't do by themselves.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's really Important.
Speaker A:You know, we talk about chronic stress because if we are constantly stressed, then our nervous system is going to be constantly in this sort of fight or flight sympathetic mode.
Speaker A:And I know you talk about this in the book with regards to finding ourselves in sort of like traffic light colors of red, amber, green.
Speaker A:And maybe we can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker A:So people can identify when they find themselves in red, what amber looks like and how to move to ultimately more of that green space.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's so helpful because I think there's a bit of a penny drop moment when people understand that some of the self care tools that they might be trying aren't hitting the mark because they're not meeting them where their nervous system is at in that moment.
Speaker B:So I'm just going to say quickly what the, what we mean by autonomic nervous system, because occasionally I find I'm talking about the nervous system.
Speaker B:Then people go, but what is that?
Speaker B:So we're talking about a really important part of the body that's responsible for keeping us safe, which operates at a preconscious level.
Speaker B:And we've got this vagus nerve that kind of transmits messages between our internal organs, like our gut, our lungs, our heart or all of these important things.
Speaker B:And also periphery, our kind of senses, our eyes, our nose, our mouth, our taste, our touch and the brain.
Speaker B:And so that messaging service transmits messages about how safe the environment is.
Speaker B:And interestingly, 80% of those messages go from the body towards the brain rather than the brain towards the body, which is just helpful for anyone who has come across a lot of the mindset work because you have to do it in an embodied way to make it land.
Speaker B:That's what the autonomic nervous system is.
Speaker B:And then in the book I kind of talk about thinking of this as having three different modes of functionality.
Speaker B:Where the green is your rest and digest system, where we can be when we're not interpreting that there's threat around us.
Speaker B:And when we're in that place, our body organs can do the business as usual stuff that they were designed for.
Speaker B:So we can digest our food, we can take the nutrients from that, we can slip into sleep more easily, we can socially engage.
Speaker B:I can, you know, read your facial expressions and body language accurately because I'm able to kind of make those connections which are super important for our long term survival.
Speaker B:However, then if we neurosep to pick up senses of danger from around us and from the responses in our gut to the surroundings.
Speaker B:So like for example, a loud noise might make our heart quicken that we interpret as being, oh, there's a danger.
Speaker B:Will switch into the different mode, which is the sympathetic nervous system gear.
Speaker B:Amber.
Speaker B:And so this is all about fight or flight.
Speaker B:Ready to kind of react quite quickly.
Speaker B:So we have a big whoosh of energy and adrenaline and cortisol start to flood our system.
Speaker B:And it's like every organ in the body gets a little shot of it ready to switch into a different mode.
Speaker B:So rather than all that digestion, all the blood flow and is pumped out to where we need it most in the extremities, like the big muscle groups ready for fight or flight.
Speaker B:And cognitively, we switch gear as well.
Speaker B:We're much more narrow, focused on the problem, on fixing everything.
Speaker B:Feels urgent.
Speaker B:Like, we can't really press pause on the, you know, to do list or those emails.
Speaker B:Everything needs to be fixed right now.
Speaker B:And everything feels much more like we're more likely to assume the worst if we don't do those things as well.
Speaker B:So have that catastrophic what if type thinking styles.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so this is helpful in an emergency.
Speaker B:But what it's not helpful is to be stuck in that.
Speaker B:And a lot of our systems and work environments and pressures we put on ourselves trigger that threat response.
Speaker B:And we can end up feeling almost stuck in Amber.
Speaker B:And what I'm explaining in my book, which is what I explained to my trauma clients as well, is that when that happens, if our attempts to run away or fight off the dangers fail continuously, the body will slip into the third branch of the nervous system, which is the dorsal shutdown state, which is red.
Speaker B:And this is a place where we are immobilized, where we have a lot less energy online.
Speaker B:It's about conserving and trying to stay safe until the threat has passed.
Speaker B:Imagine literally just wrapping yourself up into a ball until danger's gone.
Speaker B:And in the animal kingdom, that might look like a prey literally flopping.
Speaker B:And, yeah, they can even stop their breath.
Speaker A:You know, it's like playing dead, really.
Speaker B:Playing dead?
Speaker B:Yeah, temporarily.
Speaker B:They look really immobile and unappetizing to the predator.
Speaker B:In humans, we have forms of that which look like zoning out, being really distant, disconnected.
Speaker B:Like, you know, when you're just floating around and not really able to pay attention.
Speaker B:Signs that you hear might be that, you know, you're struggling to remember conversations, you're struggling to remember new instructions.
Speaker B:It can be hard to notice in that sometimes we can still do quite complex tasks because of procedural memory.
Speaker B:Where that's housed is quite a deep place.
Speaker B:So you can still do quite Complex tasks like make a cup of tea, do your driving.
Speaker B:But it's when you know there's a problem and your rote way of remembering doesn't then fit anymore.
Speaker B:So you know there's a block on the way to work.
Speaker B:It really throws you because you're just so on autopilot and so in burnout.
Speaker B:What I'm explaining in my book is that, you know, we don't want to demonize any of these parts of the nervous system.
Speaker B:They're all important.
Speaker B:But thinking like gears on a car, you want to be moving fluidly up and down and coming out, importantly, coming out of amber, coming out of red, back to green, having large chunks of time in green where we can rest, recuperate, feel better and nurture those connections with the people who protect us and make us feel good.
Speaker B:And often that's not happening.
Speaker B:We've got stuck in amber, we got stuck in red, maybe just oscillating between the two.
Speaker B:And so our repertoire of emotions is reduced.
Speaker B:We're basically either irritable or feeling shut down.
Speaker B:And those feeling content, feeling passionate, feeling compassion, we don't really have good access to those anymore.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:That was so beautifully explained.
Speaker A:And I'm nodding along because I really, really relate to all of this.
Speaker A:And I think for women who are being diagnosed later on in life with ADHD and autism together separately, so many people, so many women relate to this trauma of not being understood.
Speaker A:They relate to having to mask, to hide, to change, to conform, this inability to have understood themselves.
Speaker A:And all of this is trauma in itself.
Speaker A:And so their body is in a state of sort of hyper vigilance, I would say.
Speaker A:And probably in this, this also exactly what you say, oscillating between the red and the amber.
Speaker A:Because sometimes we don't know are we going to get rejected, are we going to get called out?
Speaker A:Are we going to be told to quieten down, to shrink ourselves, to change and to constantly.
Speaker A:We're in a hyper vigilant zone because we've never quite trusted who we are and how we should be showing up.
Speaker A:Because we've been told that we should be behaving differently or working differently.
Speaker A:That doesn't feel right to us.
Speaker A:Sadly, it's only much further later down the journey where I speak to people who've been diagnosed, who have gone through this kind of healing journey, this self acceptance and self compassion journey of being okay with who they are and working and living with integrity and with authenticity and listening to themselves finally and trusting themselves that what they, how they want to show up in the world is, is, you know, is okay.
Speaker A:And it takes, it takes a while, but then we can find ourselves more in that green zone where connection and safety, you know, are paramount.
Speaker A:Where we are, you know, when I say connection, we are maybe friends with other neurodivergent people.
Speaker A:We find our tribe.
Speaker A:We are no longer being bound by conformities of different sort of social frameworks and family members who have kind of always criticized us.
Speaker A:Safety is that, that feeling of we're working in an environment that feels good to us in our nervous system and it might not look that traditional nine to five, five days a week, but we're still working and seeing our potential and living our purposeful life.
Speaker A:And so it's really, I think it's really helpful for people to be able to understand it in those capacities because we can constantly be going to the yoga classes, doing all the healthy eating and the meditating and we still feel really wound up.
Speaker A:We still feel hyper vigilant and not in that green zone.
Speaker A:And then when we are able to let down the guard and finally accept who we are while also putting up boundaries for what we're not willing to accept, suddenly we start feeling okay.
Speaker A:So it's okay to be me, it's okay to live the way I want to live.
Speaker A:And it can, I think.
Speaker A:So I needed that permission from other people to say it's okay for you to be who you are and it's okay to do what you're doing.
Speaker A:And I needed to give that permission to myself as well while also recognizing, yes, it is important to be doing the mindful walks, the yoga, the making sure I'm getting the sleep.
Speaker A:But if I'm not doing the other stuff of the self acceptance and the self compassion and leaning into what works for me, there still feels like there's a bit of a disconnect.
Speaker A:And that is how I think we can actively prevent these burnout cycles.
Speaker A:Because it's one thing coming out of one and go right from now on, I'm definitely doing this, I'm not doing that.
Speaker A:But if we're still finding ourselves in social situations that don't feel safe to us and we are still on doing things, working in an environment that doesn't feel right's worse.
Speaker A:We're going to be jarred, aren't we, between those red and those amber zones.
Speaker B:So, and, and can I just add to say when we're in those environments that trigger our threat modes, we often go into patterns, old patterns that actually might reinforce the burnout.
Speaker B:So I talk about people pleasing perfectionism and using work to avoid strong emotions.
Speaker B:So there's an extra layer there which is that, you know, we try and cope with patterns that might have served us.
Speaker B:When you did something and someone was pleased with you, maybe that made you feel less criticized because they'd gone at your sense of identity like you just described earlier, because you, you know, you weren't doing things according to how they thought things should be done.
Speaker B:But ultimately those are not going to be serving you in, you know, the present where you're then denying what your needs are and prioritizing everyone else's needs.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I love this part of the, the book.
Speaker A:So much of it is relatable.
Speaker A:You talk about the external pressures pushing us towards burn.
Speaker A:So much of this is about awareness, isn't it?
Speaker A:And really dialing in to those things because again, I think from a neurodivergent perspective, sometimes we can't quite pinpoint the things that tip us into burnout.
Speaker A:We see it quite globally and we need to be able to sit down and really notice, okay, is it a person, is it an expectation, is it a pressure, is it a WhatsApp group?
Speaker A:And it's those little constant nudges all the time.
Speaker A:But when we can finally write it down, create that awareness.
Speaker A:So for example, you've written, you know, I'm a failure because I don't go on nice vacations, don't own a house or don't have a long term relationship or other people, parents, caregivers, teachers, doctors, whatever that is that you are in your profession are doing better than me.
Speaker A:So comparisonitis.
Speaker A:Why can't I manage when everyone else seems to?
Speaker A:These are just little things that are in our brain, but we don't externalize them.
Speaker A:But it's compounding pressure, constant pressure.
Speaker A:And I, I mean I, I feel it so much.
Speaker A:It's social media.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Especially when you're a business owner and you know that you have to be on, you need to be talking, you need to be visible algorithms just being.
Speaker A:Having to present yourself on social media and then await the, that that fear of will there be comments, will there be lights, Will there be interaction that does to your nervous system?
Speaker A:You know, just that thing alone.
Speaker A:We have to recognize these small things so we can actively find ways to move through them.
Speaker A:Which is what you do.
Speaker A:You know, you've given ways to actively help ourselves, which I think is so important because we can have these conversations, but we need practical strategies, which is what you do.
Speaker A:Sort of half the book is really understanding the like you say the psychoeducation of it, understanding how it shows up, what it looks like, how it feels in our body and our nervous system.
Speaker A:And then we have navigating away from burnout.
Speaker A:And we have tools to manage all of this.
Speaker A:Maybe you could give us some of your favorite tools.
Speaker A:Or maybe if someone's listening right now and they just kind of think, right, I need a couple of takeaways.
Speaker A:What are the ones that you like to talk about from the book?
Speaker B:I think one of the ones that you've just said, just to kind of make sure, you know, that gets enough air time, is thinking about what are the external pressures and separating them out from your internal pressures.
Speaker B:Because I kind of talk about that in the book quite a bit.
Speaker B:And like you say, mapping them out and having a sense.
Speaker B:Often this is a conversation that comes up a lot in therapy.
Speaker B:Some will come in and they'll outline all this heavy stuff that's going on, often from different pockets of their life as well.
Speaker B:You know, it'll be personal life, it'll be their kids, be their elderly parents.
Speaker B:It'll be, you know, this pressure or boss at work.
Speaker B:And often the way they talk about it is to minimize.
Speaker B:And they don't know they're doing it.
Speaker B:They're kind of like, oh, yeah, and this is happening.
Speaker B:Oh, and yeah, this thing over here.
Speaker B:And then I kind of just pause and go, hang on a minute.
Speaker B:That's this, this, this.
Speaker B:And once they can see, actually, that's a lot.
Speaker B:It kind of gives.
Speaker B:Gives people permission to actually do something and start being compassionate, taking.
Speaker B:Making compassionate decisions and choices about what they need.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's just a big part of an intervention is to slow down, map out what is here right now.
Speaker A:And what you just said, then that validation, like, like you said, we.
Speaker A:We normalize.
Speaker A:Especially if we high achievers, perfectionists, we see productivity as a badge of honor.
Speaker A:And we see we're ambitious and we want to achieve things, we're high achievers, but we can just keep going and going and going.
Speaker A:Well, that's just normal.
Speaker A:That's just, you know, what everyone's doing.
Speaker A:But to have someone, you know, like yourself, who is an expert in this area, to then say to a client, what you're going through is really, really hard.
Speaker A:What you're trying, you know, what you're juggling every single day, and those external pressures, that is, of course you're feeling burnt out.
Speaker A:Of course you're on the brink of, you know, like a health crisis.
Speaker A:And that in itself is incredibly validating.
Speaker A:And very often what we need, because when we don't have that validation, we just normalize it and we just keep going and we keep pushing through.
Speaker B:And for people who maybe don't have the inclination or funds to do that with a professional, we can do a lot from supporting each other.
Speaker B:Like you said, finding your tribe, finding your community, or just finding one person who you can have a regular check in.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people live their lives in a way that's just like about immediate, insular family and going to work and getting through stuff.
Speaker B:And it's very easy to get disconnected from friendships that have been in our lives when we don't live near people or see people regularly, which is exactly what work does.
Speaker B:You know, overworking or being expected to turn up a lot for different areas of our lives where we have to do stuff disconnects us.
Speaker B:We don't have the time and energy to nurture those friendships and relationships that fill us up.
Speaker B:Really lovely, simple intervention that I started in the autumn personally, and I, and I keep rolling this out to everybody I work with, came from a viral video on Insta Instagram.
Speaker B:I don't know if you saw it, it was called Waffle Wednesday.
Speaker B:And essentially it's just because I, I live very far from all my family and, you know, my uni friends and like school friends.
Speaker B:I don't live near them now.
Speaker B:So we just set up these little WhatsApp group.
Speaker B:Well, we already had WhatsApp groups, but we decided to call it Waffle Wednesdays.
Speaker B:And every Wednesday we just hop on, we do a one to two minute video about what we're up to that day and, you know, what, we're meeting for dinner or, you know, I come on this podcast and I talked about this and whatever.
Speaker B:And it was that kind of level of intimate connection that was missing quite often.
Speaker B:We would then meet up every five or six months, you know, whatever you can manage as a kind of working parent who lives far from people.
Speaker B:And then it's like, oh, where do you even start?
Speaker B:You know, okay, well, my dad's, you know, looking for a care home for him and all that.
Speaker B:And it's like all the big stuff kind of comes out.
Speaker B:Whereas this is a really nice way to stay connected.
Speaker B:And if someone then doesn't check in, you know, to reach in, you know, to kind of go, what's going on for them.
Speaker B:It's hard to know when to reach in when you don't have regular connections.
Speaker B:So obviously connections, massive.
Speaker B:And there are ways to get connected even when we're not physically with someone.
Speaker B:We get a lot of oxytocin being released and all our attachment chemistry from a nurturing, kind, warm voice that's familiar to us.
Speaker B:Research shows that this is the case.
Speaker B:You know, getting on the phone to someone like your mum or someone like this and hearing their voice calms us down.
Speaker B:And so this is why I like this video interaction that we do for each other.
Speaker B:It is a lovely way to, you know, light up those connections in a way that's kind of quite informal and freeing.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, love all of that.
Speaker A:Just going back to what you were saying before, because another trait that we really see is very common in the neurodivergent community.
Speaker A:Not wanting to generalize, but I know a lot of people relate to overworking or workaholism, you know, addiction, fluctuating dopamine levels or.
Speaker A:And chasing dopamine is a big part of ADHD especially.
Speaker A:And when we are very hyper focused on our work and when we're, you know, really in that zone, we can work for hours and hours and hours and realize that we've not eaten, gone to the toilet, slept properly, been drinking caffeine, all these types of things.
Speaker A:And if we're doing that over and over and over, of course we're gonna feel burnt out.
Speaker A:So we have to also acknowledge that why are we overworking?
Speaker A:You know, are we trying to prove something to people?
Speaker A:Is this a hangover, a trauma hangover from childhood when we were told that we were never good enough or we need to be harder or differently?
Speaker A:And then now in adulthood, we feel like we have to prove ourselves.
Speaker A:And I know that a lot of people relate to that.
Speaker A:But on the flip side, yes, we may be doing great things and successful, but are we seeing friends?
Speaker A:Are we connecting?
Speaker A:Are we having time out?
Speaker A:Are we associating too much sort of external validation to our work as well?
Speaker A:And all of this can contribute to burnout as well.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker B:So there's so much in there.
Speaker A:So multi layered.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it'll be like something you do in therapy with someone is you map out all these different bits and see which bits are relevant to this individual.
Speaker B:And I think probably there's people listening who will tickle all, or some at least of those things that you've just described, seeking external validation, coming from an old place of insecurity, insecure, striving.
Speaker B:Something I talk about in the book, which is when we strive to achieve, but that's not coming from a place of just Wanting our own personal growth.
Speaker B:It's coming from a place of wanting to avoid painful things like that probably have happened to us in the past, like being criticized or put down or judged negatively or humiliated.
Speaker B:So yeah, these are all really relevant.
Speaker B:And there's an opportunity in my book to do your own mapping out of that psychologist, call it a formulation to understand where this like old stuff might come from.
Speaker B:But to separate out a little bit from something else.
Speaker B:You said about dopamine, that that is designed as a neurochemical to keep us doing the things that move us towards resources so we get that positive hit from it.
Speaker B:And with the ability to kind of get constant hits from that from our work, it can be really hard for us to then come away from that.
Speaker B:And the same is true, you know, if anyone listening as kids who enjoy playing their computer games, they are getting that same dopamine hits.
Speaker B:And so what we have talked to my kids about is that when they come off that they will get a crash in the dopamine.
Speaker B:And that doesn't feel good.
Speaker B:It makes you want to keep doing more.
Speaker B:So we have to recognize that in ourselves as well.
Speaker B:You know, when I'm in my flow state and I'm kind of, yeah, I'm working through my to do list, this feels good.
Speaker B:And now I've written this blog and I've done this, then I have to remember that that's just going to keep going.
Speaker B:And I can't afford to neglect the other areas of my life because they are stress buffers.
Speaker B:You know, going for a jog or going having dinner with my family, I enjoy those things.
Speaker B:It's just that I have to ride out that dip in dopamine when I first come off because it's such a quick, easy fix and short feedback loop.
Speaker B:And those other things are gentler kind of, you know, they're the things that will give me positive vibes too, but they won't be such hard hitting in the first instance.
Speaker B:And so how I think about it is imagining that you're coming down the gears of your car so you're in sixth gear, like in the middle of work mode where you're kind of going at it full pelt.
Speaker B:What do you need to transition down your gears into kind of something that's, you know, more like a 20 mile per hour zone.
Speaker B:So for me it is often and for a lot of people, some sort of movement because you can discharge all the excess adrenaline, cortisone, dopamine.
Speaker B:So you know, it might be just going down, up and running up and down the stairs a few times, doing a few stretches.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's vigorous cleaning or something.
Speaker B:I know that sounds a bit bonkers, but I like to get a toothbrush and go into the grouting and just like, oh, it feels really good.
Speaker B:Good and satisfying.
Speaker B:See the disgusting stuff falling away.
Speaker A:I hoover the kitchen floor.
Speaker A:Literally, I'm like, that's exactly what I do.
Speaker A:And I couldn't understand it.
Speaker A:I was like, why am I so obsessed with cleaning, hoovering the kitchen floor once I've put my phone and my laptop away?
Speaker A:Because it's a way of creating that buffer of discharging the dopamine and trying to kind of calm myself down.
Speaker A:But I think what you say about the kids is so important because I have exactly the same.
Speaker A:I've got a daughter who plays on Roblox and she's on the phone to her friends doing this and then she comes off and I always know there's going to be a meltdown.
Speaker A:And it is trying to create that awareness.
Speaker A:But we're just the same if we're there, scrolling on social media, flicking between Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, checking emails, like we're just in this hyper vigilant kind of stress state and we need to be able to.
Speaker A:How, how can I do that?
Speaker A:And I sometimes just have to get rid of my phone, put my phone away for a few hours and then go into the kitchen and do some cleaning, cook, hoover the floor.
Speaker A:Because I just want to find a way to regulate.
Speaker A:And in your book you've got a chapter called Restoring Balance.
Speaker A:I think that's what it is, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's talking about this, finding equilibrium.
Speaker A:So we're not in the highs and the lows.
Speaker A:And being, okay, in a state of just being, I think is.
Speaker A:The only word I can think of is just being and not having to do.
Speaker A:We don't have to be achieving or creating or do, you know, just, just being.
Speaker A:And why has it been almost kind of deprogrammed that being is lazy or unproductive, but actually being is what soothes our nervous system?
Speaker B:Yeah, I was, I can't remember what I was reading, but it was.
Speaker B:This is not a very helpful point because there's quite a few bits I can't remember.
Speaker B:But in another language there is a word for doing nothing which doesn't have the tag of that we.
Speaker B:The judgmental feel that being lazy has.
Speaker B:I feel like there's almost like a word required for the English language for doing nothing in a.
Speaker B:I think it's pottering.
Speaker B:Yeah, maybe.
Speaker B:Yeah, I do like a potter.
Speaker B:But even that is still moving, isn't it?
Speaker B:Sometimes, you know, just.
Speaker B:Just zoning out.
Speaker A:So languishing isn't the right word either.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I've never given which language it is.
Speaker A:Because I.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's probably Scandinavian or Japanese.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:They always nail those words, don't they?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:When we are doing that, we aren't doing nothing.
Speaker B:Our body is restoring and you know, the ability to have creative thought comes back online.
Speaker B:I don't know if you've ever had that where you're working on something, you come away and then, you know, you go for that walk.
Speaker B:And the kind of solutions kind of all slot into place.
Speaker B:We need to give ourselves that time for, you know, it's called the default mode network to light up, you know, where our thoughts are more free and not focused.
Speaker B:It's very tempting though, isn't it, to then immediately start consuming more content and feeling like the answer is out there.
Speaker B:I just haven't found it yet.
Speaker B:We don't trust the answer's already in us and that we just need to give it some space and air time to find itself.
Speaker B:It's a really nice thing to try and separate out that motivation for doing something and reconnect to what your positive motivations might be as well because they will be in there, you know, their self development kind of motivations.
Speaker B:But I think when we kind of do everything from a fear place and just have a strong connection with that, that's not fun for us.
Speaker B:So even just asking yourself like what would I be doing with my time right now if no one else would was looking like those can be nice ways to connect to what our values are.
Speaker B:Quite a simple question like that can be disorientating as well if you're not used to thinking about what I need and what I like.
Speaker B:But maybe one to journal on.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:What would I be doing if.
Speaker A:If you didn't have to prove anything and there was no judgment.
Speaker A:It's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because there's.
Speaker A:I think I'm going to speak from like an ADHD perspective is that obviously brain is constantly noisy.
Speaker A:And I always relate it to having sort of this inner drill sergeant that's always barking instructions at us to keep doing more and because we have lots of ideas.
Speaker A:The amazing thing about ADHD is, is that we have the ability to think, to come up with ideas.
Speaker A:We're constantly trying to find ways through things and that's why we are often the people that come up with new solutions and we're great to have on a team, you know, for problem solving.
Speaker A:But then on the flip side, there's a very anxious part of our brain that just keeps telling us that we're not doing enough and we need to be doing more.
Speaker A:And why are you relaxing?
Speaker A:You know, there's more to be done, there's constant work that you need to be achieving.
Speaker A:And so it's learning how to quieten that part of our brain, whether it's the inner critic, whether it's the drill sergeant, whether it's like you say, the fear based thinking and coming back to that voice of self compassion of it's okay, you're doing enough, you know, it's.
Speaker A:And I have to tell myself that, you know, I'm, I'm literally, I do this podcast because I'm learning all the time as well and I'm the same as my listeners, but I just maybe one or two steps ahead because I get to have these amazing conversations with people like you where I can, you know, learn and grow and then hopefully share what I, you know, my, my learnings and insights.
Speaker A:But would you say the navigating out of burnout, would you say it is down to constant self awareness?
Speaker B:You can't really do anything to improve or work on a situation without that basic building block.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So self awareness, to break that down obviously means having a sense of what's going through your head, what's going through your, what your sensations are in your body, what your feelings are, learning what we mean by emotions, emotions, how they show up, learning to understand the human body and brain and nervous system, all of this allows you to then be attuned and then, you know, I often also suggest that the transition points in your day, trying to use that as the check in point to work out what's going on for me in this moment right now, as we end this podcast, for example, that would be a check in point because we often crash from one thing to another without the whole day can kind of blend together into one big block of busyness.
Speaker B:So the point where sometimes people will say, I don't own transitions points in my day, but I say, you know, you do, but we're just not seeing them.
Speaker B:So between things, when you're doing something different is a good opportunity to check in.
Speaker B:What am I feeling right now?
Speaker B:Do I need the toilet?
Speaker B:Am I hungry?
Speaker B:Am I cold?
Speaker B:You know, what's the quality of like, level of interaction with my thoughts right now?
Speaker B:You know, they're busy or they're jumping around or they're very hyper focused on one thing, want to fix it.
Speaker B:That, that is a really lovely simple way of starting to build up that self awareness.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Something I've started to try and do is, you know, I'm constantly task switching in my job from podcasts to maybe coaching to writing to all sorts of things and I work from home and instead of using that time between things just to sit on my phone and scroll I or do all my emails, I'm trying to have like cookery books out or magazines.
Speaker A:So when I have a cup of tea at the breakfast counter, which is what I tend to do between things, it's like always go and have a cup of tea.
Speaker A:I try and put my phone away so I can just flick through a magazine, flick through a cookery book, read the newspaper, you know, something like that.
Speaker A:Which just exactly like that just gives me that buffer.
Speaker B:I love that idea of recipe books.
Speaker B:I'm a sucker for a recipe book as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, me too.
Speaker A:And I love, I love cooking.
Speaker A:So for me I go straight into, you know, oh, I'll watch a cookery program and that straight away goes into like I'm in downtime, I'm in your happiness mode.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Cup of tea, dog, cookery program, something like that.
Speaker A:It doesn't have to cost the earth, it can just, you just have to be able to.
Speaker B:Jigsaw puzzles are a good one.
Speaker B:In our house we love a jigsaw puzzle out on the breakfast bar.
Speaker B:Just do a few pieces in between.
Speaker B:Something just kind of just changes it up a bit.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I want to thank you so much because I think this book is incredibly helpful and lots of people are going to be able to relate to it, feel very validated but also know that there are practice, practical strategies here.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And as you mentioned at the beginning, you know, not all of us are able to have, you know, one to one therapy or can afford it.
Speaker A:So to be able to use this book and have that self awareness through journaling and practicing through, you know, the different tools and the strategies, I think it's going to be incredibly helpful.
Speaker A:So it is, it's available now, isn't it?
Speaker A:So it's the trauma of burnout or burnout how to manage your nervous system before it manages you.
Speaker A:American and English title and available as.
Speaker B:An audiobook on Audible and on Spotify as well.
Speaker B:For people who prefer consuming content that way.
Speaker A:Oh, that's fantastic.
Speaker A:Okay, I'll make sure that all the links are in the show notes.
Speaker A:Are you open to new Clients.
Speaker A:Do you see clients one to one anymore?
Speaker A:How does it work?
Speaker B:Yeah, we.
Speaker B:So I work as an.
Speaker B:I've run a group practice of other psychologists who work online or in Taunton, Somerset, where I'm based.
Speaker B:And I am working on a new program which brings my EMDR training, which is a trauma focused type of.
Speaker B:Of training.
Speaker B:Have you heard of emdr?
Speaker B:Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing?
Speaker B:Such a lovely mouthful as an intensive for burnout.
Speaker B:So I'm kind of creating this kind of burnout EMDR intensive package which me and my associates will start running in, you know, hopefully at the end of the this year.
Speaker B:So that might be interesting to anyone who wants to try and do some of the kind of, you know, old work, old patterns kind of work to break some of the burnout patterns that keep recurring in their life.
Speaker B:That boom, bust pattern.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's about bilateral stimulation, isn't it?
Speaker A:Which is so helpful.
Speaker A:I learned something the other day, actually, that when you're walking and you use it, you're swinging your arms.
Speaker A:That's a part, that's, you know, form of bilateral stimulation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because you left.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We could probably do a whole, whole episode on EMDR if you ever want to.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Because it's a really fascinating therapy that people.
Speaker B:People tend to find quite interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And again, you know, it's about embodiment.
Speaker A:It's using our body.
Speaker A:It's somatic.
Speaker A:For me, I mean, I've always talked about somatic therapy for ADHD because so much of it is a full body experience that we feel it, we feel it in chronic pain, in fatigue, in energy, in.
Speaker A:In sleep, in hormones.
Speaker A:It's all encompassing.
Speaker A:And so just to be able to know that yet why has therapy maybe not worked as a standalone thing to help manage adhd, to then start researching more somatic, focused practices, I think is for me the way forward with adhd.
Speaker A:So we will definitely record that.
Speaker A:Claire, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker A:It's been fascinating and I'm sure we'll speak again very soon.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker B:I've loved every minute.
Speaker A:If today's episode has been helpful for you and you're looking for even further support, my brand new book, the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit, is now available to order from anywhere you get your books from, I really hope this book is going to be the ultimate resource for anyone who loves this podcast and wants a deeper dive into all these kinds of conversations.
Speaker A:If you head to my website, ADHD womenswellbe.co.uk UK you'll find all the information on the book there, which is going to be out on the 17th of July.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
