Better ADHD Awareness in the Workplace with Hester Grainger
This is one to share with your team, office, employers or employees!
On this short podcast episode of ADHD Women's Wellbeing Wisdom, I talk to Hester Grainger, a neurodiversity consultant, co-founder of Perfectly Autistic and Perfectly ADHD, a radio presenter and former TV presenter diagnosed with ADHD in her forties, about changing the way we look at neurodivergence in the workplace, raising awareness of what neurodiversity looks like in the office and showing up to help more people feel supported at work. We also discuss ways employees can feel seen and heard at work and break down stigmas to help create more awareness and education.
Together with her husband Kelly, who is autistic and has ADHD, they run their neurodiversity consultancy, which works with organisations to raise awareness and acceptance of neurodiversity in the workplace and works with parents and education settings around autism and ADHD.
Hester is also mum to her two children, who are autistic and have ADHD.
Check out Kate's ADHD workshops and free resources here.
Kate Moryoussef is a women’s ADHD Lifestyle and wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity, and clarity.
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Transcript
And welcome to another episode of ADHD Women's Wellbeing Wisdom.
Host:Little short, bite sized pieces of wisdom that I've curated from all the many, many episodes that have been recorded over this time.
Host:And I really hope that this short insight will help you on the week ahead.
Host:And on today's episode, you'll hear from Hester Granger.
Host:Now, Hester is a neurodiversity consultant.
Host:She's co founder of Perfectly autistic and perfectly ADHD and is a radio presenter and a former TV presenter diagnosed with ADHD in her 40s.
Host:Let's hear what she's got to say.
Hester Granger:And then it was when the children were diagnosed as autistic and we were literally handed our report and sent on our way.
Hester Granger:We were just like, that's not right.
Hester Granger:I went down an ADHD rabbit hole.
Hester Granger:And so that's how we set up perfect autistic origin as a Facebook community.
Hester Granger:Because I was like, if we've gone through this, other people would have done the same and they might not know where to look.
Hester Granger:So that's kind of how it started, was as Facebook community.
Hester Granger:And then when my husband, he had got very successful career in the corporate world again, head of sales and marketing teams and really not very autism friendly when you think about it.
Hester Granger:When he told his boss that he was autistic, his boss laughed and said, you don't look autistic.
Hester Granger:And he was just like, right.
Hester Granger:He said, yeah, you don't look it.
Hester Granger:I just thought you were really blunt and I just thought you had a stick up your ass.
Hester Granger:And we were just like.
Hester Granger:And that was that.
Hester Granger:And we just like.
Hester Granger:And we're done.
Hester Granger:So we just.
Hester Granger:Kelly decided that if he'd gone through that, you know, a big global company, if he'd gone through that, then other people would have done too.
Hester Granger:And that's kind of how Perfectly Autistic as a neurodiversity consultancy came about in terms of working with workplaces and organizations to help them be neurodivergent, friendly.
Hester Granger:Because there's so much work to be done as you know, and that's kind of how that came about.
Hester Granger:Just kind of a bit of a natural evolution, really.
Host:Yeah.
Host:I mean, I love what you described then because me and my husband are quite similar to that.
Host:We're quite spontaneous.
Host:But also I think when we are, you have that neurodivergent brain.
Host:I do.
Host:Even though it is impulsive, I think we're very highly tuned to our guts and that intuitive kind of like, is it a yes, is it a no?
Host:And when we've made those decisions together, even though they feel impulsive to others, we always know that it's a good, gut decision and they happen few and far between, but when it happens, it's kind of like, okay, that was a good, impulsive decision.
Host:And what you're talking about with your husband's boss's reaction, you think that was like the 90s?
Host:I think that was like the 80s.
Host:But this is literally happening right now.
Hester Granger:Yeah.
Hester Granger:And like three years ago.
Host:Yeah, we.
Host:We work in this bubble.
Host:We're in a bit of an echo chamber because we sort of really understand and we speak to.
Host:And, you know, obviously we sort of follow lots of the same people and social media, so we're kind of conditioned to this conversation.
Host:But when you are in a corporate environment, like you say, if, say, your personality is maybe a little bit sort of guarded, or you don't sort of relax easily in front, you know, lots of people, all these different things.
Host:And again, as, you know, one ADHD person, one autistic person, is not the same as someone else.
Host:But do you feel that we're only at the very beginning, like, you go into businesses and consult for them and go into big organizations.
Host:What kind of level of understanding are you finding with neurotypicals?
Hester Granger:Sadly, not where we should be.
Hester Granger:I love that people and organizations are wanting to have these conversations, but I literally spoke to a really big organization the other day and I said, you know, obviously we were diagnosed Both in our 40s, my husband and I, and I said we didn't know.
Hester Granger:And he just said.
Hester Granger:And he was really honest, and he just said, I had no idea people wouldn't know that they're neurodivergent.
Hester Granger:And I sat there, I thought, how can he think that?
Hester Granger:But then it's not his bubble, it's not his world.
Hester Granger:It's not.
Hester Granger:You know, Kelly always makes a joke about neurodiversity.
Hester Granger:You know, you think it's the Britain's Got Talent act kind of thing.
Hester Granger:You know, it's not.
Hester Granger:We know the word.
Hester Granger:We know all about, you know, what neurodiversity means and what neurotypical means and so many other people don't.
Hester Granger:And I just think we're playing a long game here.
Hester Granger:It's a long game.
Hester Granger:It's not.
Hester Granger:You know, we always say this when we work with organizations.
Hester Granger:You're opening up Pandora's box within the workplace.
Hester Granger:You need to have the support and systems in place if you're going to just get someone in because it's, you know, autism Awareness week, Autism Acceptance Week.
Hester Granger:You know, you need to know that, actually, you need to put that support in for those people and your colleagues that look and think, gosh, actually, that's me.
Hester Granger:Or even for parent carers.
Hester Granger:You know, if you're looking after autistic or ADHD children, by the time you've got them to school or to wherever they need to be and you've gone to work, you feel like you've done 10 rounds.
Hester Granger:You know, it's exhausting.
Hester Granger:So there needs to be this framework and this support.
Hester Granger:But, yeah, I think we're a long way off there being real acceptance and understanding.
Hester Granger:But it's a start and it's a journey, and that's what we're kind of here to help with.
Host:Yeah, amazing.
Host:So, I mean, are you getting.
Host:When you go into organizations and again, you've got this kind of almost blank faces, People don't really understand what they're looking for.
Host:And they do have this very kind of stigmatized view of autism and adhd.
Host:Have you had situations where someone's come up to you and said, oh, my God, you've like, described me, or you've helped me see something that I've never seen before?
Host:Like, are you getting people who are sort of totally oblivious and then suddenly seeing neurodivergent, divergent traits in themselves?
Hester Granger:Yeah, a lot.
Hester Granger:And a lot more than I thought we would do.
Hester Granger:We get emails and we get people coming up to us afterwards, or we get people that know that they are diagnosed.
Hester Granger:I had it recently in a workshop and the person said, I've never told my team.
Hester Granger:I've never felt comfortable enough.
Hester Granger:But, yeah, I've got ADHD and I was diagnosed and this is who I am.
Hester Granger:We get a lot of people, especially I think, with Kelly's story about very strong corporate career, and this is what you do and you act in this way, and you're a certain type of sort of corporate mold, actually, that's then really hard to unpick and think, gosh, actually, Kelly said he just used to think that everybody else managed it easier than he did.
Hester Granger:He didn't realize that that's because he was neurodivergent.
Hester Granger:And I think that's the thing.
Hester Granger:The same with a lot of my experiences at work.
Hester Granger:You know, when you then talk about it and you share your story, people are like, I had someone crying in a session the other day saying, oh, my gosh, this is just what you're describing about me and how I am.
Hester Granger:She said, I just feel seen and I feel heard.
Hester Granger:And I didn't know that's what it was.
Hester Granger:And the same with me, really.
Hester Granger:I had no idea, genuinely no idea, it was adhd.
Hester Granger:I've got friends saying, how did you not know?
Hester Granger:And I'm like, how did you not tell me?
Hester Granger:Like, you know.
Hester Granger:And I just think.
Hester Granger:I thought everybody thought the same.
Hester Granger:I just thought everybody lives in an alternate world where magical things happen and, you know, you wear sparkly jumpers on dull days because you can.
Hester Granger:I just think it was normal in inverted commas.
Hester Granger:I didn't think.
Hester Granger:I just thought it was me and who I am rather than my adhd.
Host:Yeah.
Host:It's an amazing thing that you're doing.
Host:And tell me, what kind of organizations are you going into?
Host:You know, what are they ranging from?
Host:I'm interested to know, like, who is actively seeking out more awareness and education within the workplace.
Hester Granger:It's such a wide range.
Hester Granger:We've done so many talks for so many different people, work with really big organizations.
Hester Granger:We've done talks and training with the Guardian, with bp, Shell, we're partners with mind, We've been doing a lot of workshops with them lately, which has been absolutely brilliant.
Hester Granger:University of Warwick, we're doing some work with lots of education establishments as well.
Hester Granger:The list is really large and wide.
Hester Granger:Lots of people in the media and PR industries as well.
Hester Granger:Obviously a lot of tech as well.
Hester Granger:That's naturally.
Hester Granger:They're sort of going, hold on, I think we've probably got a neurodivergent workforce.
Hester Granger:We're like, yeah, you have, but so many.
Hester Granger:And do you know what's amazing is that it all comes to us, what people are saying, because I do a lot of PR and do a lot of talking and writing about autism and ADHD and neurodiversity in the workplace and people are then having a Google and finding us and saying, this is what we want.
Hester Granger:But like I said, when we talk to them, we say, you can't just do a one off session, or you can initially, but actually you've got to then have that support and have you got those things in place ready?
Hester Granger:And we turned down talks as well.
Hester Granger:There was a massive, massive corporate company and they were so neurodivergent friendly, it was unbelievable.
Hester Granger:And we just said, yeah, we're not working with you.
Hester Granger:And they were like, oh, but why not?
Hester Granger:We were like, because this whole process and because it's just Kelly and I, we can do that because we've got strong morals and values and it's got to.
Hester Granger:It can't just be a tick box exercise oh, great.
Hester Granger:We've done neurodiversity training.
Hester Granger:Let's move on.
Hester Granger:They didn't want to talk about reasonable adjustments, they didn't want to talk about any adaptions to make.
Hester Granger:And you're like, why are you doing this?
Hester Granger:What's the point?
Host:Yeah, I was just about to ask you that about the next steps and how do they embrace that?
Host:Because there's one thing you coming in and talking about and creating awareness, but then you're kind of like throwing a bit of a curveball in their logistics and how they operate and obviously spending more money and having to offer more flexibility.
Host:And when you run a business, you're trying to cut corners and that's not what you want to hear, you know, accommodations and things like that.
Host:But how, you know, I guess what are you coming in and advising and what are people asking for?
Host:And what would you say if you are working in a big corporate right now and you have had a diagnosis and you are scared to speak out and you're scared to speak to the hr?
Host:I have so many clients who work for big corporates and are exhausted and drained and they're desperate for more accommodations, they're scared of losing their jobs, they're scared of being vulnerable, they're scared of people not understanding.
Host:So what would you say to people?
Host:Where would they start and what can they be asking for?
Hester Granger:Yeah, I think there's so many reasonable adjustments and you mentioned costs there.
Hester Granger:So many of them don't have to cost anything.
Hester Granger:It doesn't.
Hester Granger:Maybe a change in communication styles, maybe a change in how you hold meetings, but these are changes and adaptations that are suitable for everybody.
Hester Granger:So I got an email yesterday from someone in the NHS saying, oh, I'm helping someone go for a job and they want to go for an interview at this company.
Hester Granger:And she's looking for some support and basically she said, I need to know what questions are going to be asked during the interview.
Hester Granger:We do a lot of work around recruitment and the interview process, right from job descriptions all the way up, a lot of HR manager training, et cetera.
Hester Granger:And I said, but they just need to ask for the questions.
Hester Granger:And the company came back and said, yeah, but that's almost like cheating, basically.
Hester Granger:You know, that's not fair if she has the questions.
Hester Granger:And I said, but you offer the questions to everybody.
Hester Granger:It's not about your autistic, you're ADHD, you're dyslexic, etc.
Host:It's.
Hester Granger:This is just what we do, we make these changes for everybody.
Hester Granger:So if anybody Asks for the questions.
Hester Granger:You let them know what questions they're going to be asked in an interview.
Hester Granger:But I mean, there's so many changes.
Hester Granger:Really easy to adapt around, you know, even lighting, even having, I hate overhead lights.
Hester Granger:So just if there's an option to have like up lighters near you or a little lamp on your desk, making sure that if you're easily distracted, like, you know, myself having adhd, that you're not like sat in the main sort of thoroughfare, that you maybe move desks and people don't have, you know, like standing up meetings and chats next to you, really simple things like you don't have, you know, if you've got an open plan office and there's a kitchen in the middle, don't let people cook, you know, last night's curry in the microwave.
Hester Granger:Nobody likes that.
Hester Granger:But if you're autistic with your ADHD and you've got sensory processing issues, that is going to be the difference between, you know, if you're having a bad day or, and that meeting ran late and something else happened and you're suffering from RSD and then someone cooks last night's curry, that is just too much.
Hester Granger:So again, it's just about making these adaptations for everybody.
Hester Granger:It's not about saying, oh, well, you know, Barry's got dyslexia and Janice has got adhd.
Hester Granger:We need to do things just for them.
Hester Granger:And that's, I think, where some companies get it wrong.
Hester Granger:And they say, well, we don't even have a neurodivergent workforce.
Hester Granger:It's like 20% of the population neurodivergent, 50% do not know it.
Hester Granger:I got to my 40s not knowing I had ADHD.
Hester Granger:I had no idea.
Hester Granger:So there must have been loads of times that I could have had simple adaptions put into place.
Hester Granger:You know, just knowing that there's a quiet room that you can just go and take time out.
Hester Granger:But that's suitable for everybody.
Hester Granger:Everybody has bad days, everybody has overwhelmed.
Hester Granger:Everybody needs to have time just to take stock.
Hester Granger:It's not about, oh, this is because you're neurodivergent.
Hester Granger:It's just making workplaces more accessible and kind and nicer space for all.
Host:Yeah.
Host:And I think now after lockdown and we've all experienced working from home and recognizing, you know, how distracting it can be to work in an office, how all the sensory stuff can be really overwhelming.
Host:And certain people have really, really flourished working at home.
Host:And I know other people really struggled.
Host:But if you're introverted or there Is neurodivergence there.
Host:You will probably found working home a much easier environment to be in.
Host:Obviously there's distractions and all other things going on.
Host:I know when I worked, I worked in a busy PR office and I've said this before on the podcast, there was so many things that I struggled with from smells.
Host:You know, literally my sense of smell was just off the charts.
Host:But I just.
Host:That was just me.
Host:I had a weird sense of smell.
Host:I didn't notice anything sensory, but it would give me a headache, it would make me exhausted.
Host:I would like, literally have to move away from something.
Host:People would think it was just overreacting.
Host:A bit dramatic.
Host:I sometimes have to sit there and have to put like a scarf round my nose because the sense of smell was just so strong.
Hester Granger:Yeah.
Host:And I look back and I.
Host:And I remember getting in my car at 6:00.
Host:This is before kids.
Host:I'm getting in my car at 6 o'clock and being like, oh my God, if I speak or if anyone talks to me, I can't, you know, And I'd get in and my husband or my, you know, he was my boyfriend at the time, would try and have a conversation with me and I was like, you can't talk to me for an hour.
Host:And I'd go upstairs and I'm remembering this now.
Host:We lived in this little tiny house and the water pressure would sometimes just be off and the hot water would just turn off.
Host:And all I wanted was at like 7 o'clock to get in the shower, have a hot shower and just decompress.
Host:Sometimes that didn't happen.
Host:And I would have the most immature meltdown.
Host:I called it an immature meltdown.
Host:Like, I couldn't understand why that shower would send me into such a spiral.
Host:And now I look back is that I just needed, you know, needed that time.
Host:So there's all these little things that we can join the dots to where we would dismiss or invalidate or tell ourselves why we so ridiculous.
Host:Look at other people.
Host:But like you say, to have a quiet, calm room to sit in, to have a bit of downtime, to have the option to sit by a window.
Host:I mean, I remember another thing that was really triggering for me was if I sat underneath the air conditioning vent, right?
Host:And it would.
Host:And I wouldn't have any fresh air.
Host:And then the smells would sort of circulate, would make me feel really sick and hot and I would lose my focus and it was like all I could feel was like my dry eyes and hot and I couldn't get any work done.
Host:And I couldn't understand why this sensitivity was so overpowering, but now I do.
Host:And so for you to be able to come in and talk about those little things where you're not asking for everyone to have their own office, you're not asking for all these crazy accommodations, it's just little tweaks, isn't it, for people to feel more comfortable.
Hester Granger:Yeah.
Hester Granger:And I think as well is because we are neurodivergent, I always say.
Hester Granger:I think so many people are neurodiversity consultants who aren't neurodivergent.
Hester Granger:And I just think it makes a massive difference because we can explain from our perspective what it's like or how overwhelming it is.
Hester Granger:I had something earlier.
Hester Granger:Someone was emailing, asking Kelly to talk to a journalist about something rather.
Hester Granger:And I said, if it's all written down, that's absolutely fine, but let's not just spring an interview on him.
Hester Granger:And I just think you can do that at work with meetings.
Hester Granger:All of a sudden someone's like, are you free for a chat?
Hester Granger:I mean, that feeling of dread, isn't it?
Hester Granger:And you're like, you don't know what's coming.
Hester Granger:Just, you know, just.
Hester Granger:Yeah, isn't it that, oh, can I grab you for two minutes?
Hester Granger:And you're like, am I going to be fired?
Hester Granger:Have I been caught doing something?
Hester Granger:Did they see that I was online shopping?
Hester Granger:Because I've just taken two minutes down time, like, what is it?
Hester Granger:What happened?
Hester Granger:And I just think it's just by putting certain things into place.
Hester Granger:And you said, you know, what sort of kind of things do people ask for?
Hester Granger:And I think it's around.
Hester Granger:It literally even starts right from the interviews and job description and getting people jobs, because, you know, we know that that's a massive struggle for neurodivergent people.
Hester Granger:And I just think it's by making some really simple changes and just the way we communicate with people so we don't just, you know, where they love island, pull them for a chat kind of thing.
Hester Granger:You know, you actually schedule in a meeting or you give people a chance to say, well, actually, you know what?
Hester Granger:I'm rammed today, I can do later, or tomorrow would be even better.
Hester Granger:Because like you said at the end of your day when you couldn't have your shower to decompress.
Hester Granger:It wasn't about the shower, but it's the fizzy coke bottle analogy that we often use with autistic children, where if you start your morning and something stressful happens and the socks don't feel right.
Hester Granger:Because you're stressed, the Coke bottle shakes.
Hester Granger:If you don't get a chance to decompress it a little bit by maybe watching your favorite program for 10 minutes or listening to a great song or whatever it is, then the next thing happens, the fizzy Coke bottle, it keeps going, going.
Hester Granger:And then if you don't have that chance to decompress, the child gets home, or in your case, the adult, which often happens, and fizzy Coke bottle explodes and you just don't because you haven't had that chance to take out those little, you know, just to decompress a little bit.
Host:So I hope you enjoyed listening to this shorter episode of the ADHD Women's Wellbeing podcast.
Host:I've called it the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Wisdom because I believe there's so much wisdom in the guests that I have on and their insights.
Host:So sometimes we just need that little bit of a reminder.
Host:And I hope that has helped you today and look forward to seeing you back on the brand new new episode on Thursday.
Host:Have a good rest of your week.
