Sleep Solutions and Circadian Secrets for ADHD Wellbeing with Lynne Peeples
This week, I dive into the fascinating link between ADHD and sleep with science journalist Lynne Peeples, author of The Inner Clock. Together, we explore how ADHD affects circadian rhythms, why so many with ADHD identify as night owls, and how societal expectations around sleep cycles often clash with ADHD traits.
What You’ll Learn:
✨ Why 78% of individuals with ADHD identify as night owls and how genetics play a role.
✨ How modern lifestyle factors like artificial light and irregular meal times disrupt sleep.
✨ Practical small adjustments to your routine—like reducing evening light and keeping consistent meal times—can improve sleep hygiene.
✨ Understanding your natural sleep patterns is key to better managing ADHD symptoms.
✨ The unique sleep challenges faced by women with ADHD, especially during hormonal changes.
During this conversation, we explore practical strategies to improve sleep quality, such as adjusting meal times and optimising light exposure throughout the day. The episode also highlights the importance of understanding our unique sleep patterns and the impact of hormonal changes, especially in women, as they navigate their own wellness journeys.
Timestamps:
- 01:55 - Exploring the connection between ADHD and sleep patterns
- 12:49 - Finding balance in daily life with ADHD
- 13:54 - The impact of meal timing on health
- 23:20 - Cultural perspectives on circadian rhythms
- 28:05 - The impact of light on mood and behaviour
- 33:03 - The impact of modern life on circadian rhythms
- 39:21 - Understanding Melatonin and sleep regulation
If you’ve ever struggled with sleep as an adult with ADHD or want practical advice to improve your rest, this episode is packed with actionable insights and empowering knowledge to help you feel more in tune with your body and mind.
Connect with Lynne via her Instagram, @lynne.peeples.
Find Kate's popular online workshops and free resources here.
Kate Moryoussef is a women's ADHD lifestyle and wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity and clarity.
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm Kate Moore Youssef, and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids, and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Kate Moore Youssef:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Kate Moore Youssef:Here's today's episode.
Kate Moore Youssef:Today we are talking about sleep.
Kate Moore Youssef:We're talking about circadian rhythm.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I have to say, I have just, just finished an amazing book.
Kate Moore Youssef:When I say finished, I've read it in a very ADHD way and scanned lots of the chapters and gone into the areas that I'm really interested in.
Kate Moore Youssef:But this is a fantastic book.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's called the Inner Clock and it's written by Lynn Peoples.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now, Lynn is here with us today, and I am looking forward to really delving into these fascinating conversations.
Kate Moore Youssef:But just to give you a bit of background on Lynn, she is a science journalist whose writing has appeared in the Guardian, Scientific American, Nature and many other publications.
Kate Moore Youssef:And before her move to writing, she crunched numbers as a bio statistician for HIV clinical trials and environmental health studies, and holds master's degrees in biostatistics from the Harvard School of Public Health and in science journalism from the New York University.
Kate Moore Youssef:And she now lives in Seattle.
Kate Moore Youssef:So, Lynn, welcome to the podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm feeling very inadequate reading out that, that bio.
Lynn Peoples:Oh, no, not at all.
Lynn Peoples:Than so much for having me.
Lynn Peoples:I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, so when I saw this, this book and I was like, oh, from a very personal perspective, I was very eager to read it, but also because sleep and ADHD are so intertwined, and I don't think I know anyone with adhd, whether they are diagnosed or not, that doesn't struggle in some capacity to find good quality sleep.
Kate Moore Youssef:And whether it's to do with being a very early riser and you fall asleep early, that's my husband.
Kate Moore Youssef:Or we are owls and we go to bed really late and we don't switch off until, you know, much later on in the evening, but we really struggle to then wake up and conform to this, this neurotypical way of, of working and being.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so maybe we can address that a little bit.
Kate Moore Youssef:What you found in the book and the research around maybe these sleep patterns.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:So it's interesting.
Lynn Peoples:The science is really lining up an association between ADHD and certain circadian rhythm predispositions.
Lynn Peoples:So there is a study that found 78% of people with ADHD are night owls, essentially.
Lynn Peoples:So disproportionate.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:Number in the population are leaning later.
Lynn Peoples:And that, I mean, as you mentioned, the sleep troubles and then these circadian rhythm troubles that are probably happening behind the scenes, these all go together and they can potentially exacerbate each other.
Lynn Peoples:So if you're, you know, and I may wave.
Lynn Peoples:May very well fall in the same camp, working, working through figuring out if I have ADHD myself.
Lynn Peoples:But between the, you know, the active mind laying awake at night, perhaps you're already naturally wanting to stay up later, busy tackling your tasks and then sleeping in in the morning, missing critical morning light, which is necessary to recalibrate your circadian clocks in your body.
Lynn Peoples:And it just, it sets you off on this kind of the snowball pattern.
Lynn Peoples:So the science is suggesting that that might be both genetic, that our inner.
Lynn Peoples:These.
Lynn Peoples:These genes that regulate our circadian clocks could be different, associated with the same traits that ADHD is lined up with, as well as this behavior factor that like, kind of the consequences of the symptoms of ADHD could kind of interact and just make everything all that much more difficult.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:That's really interesting that there's a genetic component there that actually kind of like frees us a little bit, because I see it, my husband sleeps very much like his father, and I've got a daughter that sleeps a little bit like my husband, and then I've got a son who sleeps like me.
Lynn Peoples:Okay.
Kate Moore Youssef:This is not like nurture.
Kate Moore Youssef:This is just kind of.
Kate Moore Youssef:As my kids have got older, I've just noticed their patterns.
Kate Moore Youssef:Obviously, being a parent in this day and age, and we're constantly so aware of phones and scrolling and social media and all the stuff that comes with that.
Kate Moore Youssef:Everything that's doing to our brains and sleep, there is a worry.
Kate Moore Youssef:But if we removed all the social Media, you know, 20 years ago, we weren't on phones, but we were still having sleep issues, weren't we?
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, exactly.
Lynn Peoples:So I think there's so much of this is just biologically ingrained, and then we're throwing on top of it modern society's toys or tools or other pressures.
Kate Moore Youssef:I guess what's interesting is that, yes, we have the genetics, but we're also learning so much, aren't we?
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, when you did the research to your book and you were uncovering all these like, I loved all the cool stories that you were telling from like different historical times and everything.
Kate Moore Youssef:What were those connections that you kept noticing from history and what we're seeing now, like what hasn't changed really?
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, I mean, I think modern society over the last, more or less, the last few decades is just really stretched what's called this chronotype curve.
Lynn Peoples:78% of those with ADHD fall on the end of this chronotype curve which describes how your inner clocks are ticking.
Lynn Peoples:There's the early birds, there's the night owls, there's everywhere in between.
Lynn Peoples:100 years ago that curve was pretty tight.
Lynn Peoples:Like there weren't that many people on any, you know, extreme end of it.
Lynn Peoples:But because of the way we live today, which is mostly Indoors, you know, 90 plus percent of the time on average, we're in modern society, we're indoors, away from natural daylight.
Lynn Peoples:We eat at all hours of the day, we're eating, you know, the midnight snack, we have refrigerators, we have all these opportunities, we have the corner store opportunities to eat late at night.
Lynn Peoples:You know, we're traveling across time zones more, we're changing the clocks back and forth twice a year.
Lynn Peoples:All these things are just wreaking havoc on these inner clocks and they're exacerbating those differences.
Lynn Peoples:So there's been studies that have shown that the spread of that curve has, has widened and, and so that directly impacts, you know, those night owls, I mean, even more extreme night owls than they would have been living, you know, probably with this, with the same biology.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, 100 years ago.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:Those night owls I can definitely speak for because with ADHD are busy and they are trying to cram in a lot during the day, but there's also things that they're trying to catch up on and they're also desperately clawing back time or needing time to decompress after being non stop busy all day and doing so much for them, for other people, but also needing time for themselves.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that only time that we get back is maybe at like 10pm and so between, you know, once our kids, I'm speaking as a mother, but once our kids go to bed and the kitchen's tidy and washing is away and lunch is packed and all the many, many things that we have to do, it comes to 10pm and we just need some peace and quiet and to go to bed doesn't feel like we're claiming any time back for ourselves.
Kate Moore Youssef:Even though we know logically going to bed is a really good thing.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like sleep is a really good thing.
Kate Moore Youssef:We know we always feel better and especially with adhd, we, we know that our ADHD symptoms are lessened with the more sleep that we get.
Kate Moore Youssef:But there's this like payoff of I just want some time to myself.
Kate Moore Youssef:I just want to sit and watch Netflix.
Kate Moore Youssef:I just need to do that.
Lynn Peoples:We need that like wind down time because it's so.
Kate Moore Youssef:And our life, like you say our lives are so much busier.
Kate Moore Youssef:So sleep is kind of like the bottom of our priority list, I guess.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think on the whole as a society, it's starting to, you know, creep up on it.
Lynn Peoples:But.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, but the reality, as you said, I mean, all these things have to get done during the day and these are realities that women face.
Lynn Peoples:So there's, I mean, I guess, you know, coming from, from my research these last few years, the great news is that even just small tweaks can potentially make a really big difference.
Lynn Peoples:So even if you do need that decompression time, you know, after you've put the kids to bed and everything else, you know, maybe that time involves having dim lights, which are calming to your physiology anyway, and maybe trying to opt for, you know, a tea rather than a glass of wine, for example, because wine is so easy to reach to when you're so, you know, wound up and stressed and you want to like calm yourself.
Lynn Peoples:But that in turn will disrupt sleep and make things even harder.
Lynn Peoples:That snowball effect comes back into play.
Lynn Peoples:So I think there's like three key things I came to in researching this book.
Lynn Peoples:And this is like, you know, one is contrast.
Lynn Peoples:Increasing the brightness of your days and the darkness of your nights to try to get your clocks in sync with the sun and with each other.
Lynn Peoples:And then it's constricting the meal times that you eat during the day.
Lynn Peoples:So it's especially critical, like three hours before bed to try to stop taking in any calories.
Lynn Peoples:And so that's like any snack, any sip of wine, anything that will kind of wake up your digestive and metabolism system.
Lynn Peoples:And then it's consistency.
Lynn Peoples:It's like trying to go to bed at the same time every night, seven days a week, and eating meals at the same time, exercising at the same time, which is also incredibly hard in today's society when it's like weekends or catch up time.
Lynn Peoples:Right?
Lynn Peoples:You know, you want to, you want to sleep in, but, but like, even if you can't do all those things, trying to get one or two checked off every night could really Help to sleep and getting the sleep help and waking up early and refreshed could then help you the next night and you get on a positive feedback loop rather than the negative feedback loop.
Lynn Peoples:That can happen.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I can see just those tweaks alone, how, you know, how helpful they can be for sure.
Kate Moore Youssef:Just to hear you say to not eat anything three hours before bed is like, oh, I was thinking, you know.
Kate Moore Youssef:But I do sleep better if I eat, say dinner at 6pm instead of like 8:30pm sometimes we do eat dinner at 6pm and I quite like that, actually.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like just getting it out the way, kitchen, tidied, everything.
Kate Moore Youssef:But it unfortunately is not that realistic most nights.
Lynn Peoples:Right, right.
Kate Moore Youssef:And it's hard because sometimes you want to be sociable and you want to go out and you want to have dinner and wine and not go to bed every night at 10pm and you've kind of like, you've got to weigh it.
Lynn Peoples:You've got a balance.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:You've got to weigh.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, I still do that.
Lynn Peoples:I'm not going to, I'm not going to stop having a life, a social life outside of these circadian clock rules.
Lynn Peoples:But it's just, you know, keeping it in mind and the days that you can just thinking about those, maybe there's.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like a 70, 30 rule.
Kate Moore Youssef:Kind of like 70% of the time you are kind of sticking within these sort of circadian rhythm kind of guidelines for yourself.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then we give ourselves a bit of 30% kind of bandwidth of flexibility and being okay with that.
Kate Moore Youssef:What would you think?
Lynn Peoples:I like that.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, that's a good number.
Lynn Peoples:70.
Kate Moore Youssef:I feel like that's manageable.
Kate Moore Youssef:Ish.
Kate Moore Youssef:And it's not.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, with adhd, I think so many of us want to be like, we want to be perfect because we see how easily our life is derailed and how easily we can kind of like our dopamine chasing can.
Kate Moore Youssef:Two hours later, we're still scrolling on our phone, we just think, how's that happened?
Kate Moore Youssef:So we, we try really hard to keep ourselves in check.
Kate Moore Youssef:But often it's at the price of like a very negative critical voice.
Kate Moore Youssef:That's always kind of, you should be doing more, you should be better, like tomorrow, you need to do it, you know, differently.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I love these conversations around sleep and wellbeing and lifestyle.
Kate Moore Youssef:But I also want to kind of give everyone this compassion of it doesn't have to look perfect every day and there is flexibility.
Kate Moore Youssef:Obviously you've done all this research, you've presented the facts and they are kind of concrete.
Kate Moore Youssef:But how, if you want to put this like into practical terms in like day to day living and allow people to understand the power and the importance of the circadian rhythm, but also kind of say, but it's okay if it doesn't look perfect.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, I mean, I think I want to add, I like your 70, 30.
Lynn Peoples:I'm like adding that to.
Lynn Peoples:No.
Lynn Peoples:And I think, I mean, yeah, balance is key because nobody's, I mean that's part of it is, I mean, public health messaging, right.
Lynn Peoples:You, if you make something too difficult, people are just going to brush it aside and not, you know, it's going to be hard to even try.
Lynn Peoples:And the reality is, and the scientists, I think are great in recognizing this.
Lynn Peoples:I spoke with a researcher who's doing a lot of work on the timing of meals.
Lynn Peoples:So that piece, that constricting meal time piece, there's research showing that eating within a six or eight hour window is amazing for your health and reduces risks of diabetes and potentially enhances longevity and all these things.
Lynn Peoples:But it's like, who's going to eat between six and eight hours only a day?
Lynn Peoples:Um, so that's really in extremes.
Lynn Peoples:But you know, she's found that 10 hour, a 10 hour window hugely, but still hugely beneficial and potentially actually doable.
Lynn Peoples:You know, again, maybe not seven days a week.
Lynn Peoples:It's again just those days that you have control over that can make a huge difference.
Lynn Peoples:It helps, you know, build up your ability to kind of, I don't know, withstand the insults that come from those days that you are breaking the rules.
Lynn Peoples:But maybe not even call it breaking the rules.
Lynn Peoples:It's just living but like, but trying to keep, just keeping these things in mind and I think awareness is huge.
Lynn Peoples:I mean to know that such a small tweak could help you and then experiencing that.
Lynn Peoples:For me, you know, I had all this data, talked to all these scientists, but it wasn't until I really followed these circadian hygiene lessons and tracked my data and kind of tracked how I felt that, you know, it's motivation.
Lynn Peoples:It was like, I really do feel better, function better, my mood's lighter when I do as many of these things as possible.
Lynn Peoples:And when, you know, if I eat too close to bed or drink alcohol too close to bed, I mean, I wake up not feeling well.
Lynn Peoples:And the data for my Fitbit backs it up.
Lynn Peoples:It's just my REM sleep's really short.
Lynn Peoples:I've woken up a lot throughout the night.
Lynn Peoples:Those kinds of things just reinforcing.
Kate Moore Youssef:How long did it take for you to write the book and how long were you researching and I guess what changed for you from not knowing all this information to knowing it.
Lynn Peoples:So it was about like a two and a half year process.
Lynn Peoples:It was mostly research for the first like year and a half, but some writing involved.
Lynn Peoples:So I am maybe more evidence than I am probably do have adhd.
Lynn Peoples:But you know, it was hard for me to, to really discipline myself about, you know, how I was going to organize my time there.
Lynn Peoples:So.
Lynn Peoples:So lessons learned.
Lynn Peoples:But.
Lynn Peoples:But yeah, it was a lot of research and was kind of connecting the dots from my interviews with people and then my own experiences that I put myself through for the book again it was like this.
Lynn Peoples:The personal data weighed even more in my mind, you know, in addition to the scientific research.
Lynn Peoples:And like I said, the eating piece like played profoundly for me because I had never thought about that.
Lynn Peoples:You know, I grew up in a family where we all had like ice cream or a bowl of cereal before we went to bed.
Lynn Peoples:It was just the norm.
Lynn Peoples:And not to say that that's necessarily bad.
Lynn Peoples:You know, my dad still does that and he is extremely healthy at 82.
Lynn Peoples:You know, it's not that like again these rules are not black and white and it, and you can break them and still live happily and healthily.
Lynn Peoples:But as soon as I started tweaking some of those, I just noticed, I noticed a difference.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, the food thing feels like a manageable thing thing actually when you said that like that 10 hour window.
Kate Moore Youssef:So if I'm right, that's like, if you have breakfast at like 10am you stop eating at 8pm or even if you have like brunch about 11am you can have you finished in, you know, and that if you know, you can have an early dinner, go out for dinner, whatever at 9pm, finish eating so it doesn't feel that unmanageable.
Kate Moore Youssef:And actually, you know, for me now I've noticed as I'm sort of heading into my mid-40s to drink any kind of alcohol.
Kate Moore Youssef:I never ever sleep well.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like never.
Kate Moore Youssef:I may fall asleep quickly but at like two in the morning, one in the morning, I'm like, eyes ping open, my heart racing and that's it.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm lying awake for two hours in the night.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that could just be one glass of wine now.
Lynn Peoples:Same here.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, it's rough.
Kate Moore Youssef:It is rough and it's annoying, but it kind of, it's interesting isn't it?
Kate Moore Youssef:Because it's kind of your body giving you that feedback straight away of saying to you like this isn't working and you can be persistent with it.
Kate Moore Youssef:And for me now, you know, perimenopause, my ADHD symptoms, I need to weigh our way up.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I have to say my well being and feeling good, my mood and my focus and my concentration, all of that is, is probably like more important to me than having that glass of wine.
Kate Moore Youssef:But it's taking, you know, it really has taken me a while to kind of make that choice.
Kate Moore Youssef:Not saying that I won't drink wine, but I make a more intentional, more mindful choice about it.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, that's almost exactly for me what I have come to.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, it's a slow process, knowing everything and then, but actually acting on it and making it part of your, your life.
Lynn Peoples:It's a process.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, I just want to throw in there not to like, not to beat a dead horse.
Lynn Peoples:But the, the, the, that constricting to 10 hours, I mean, it really should be on the earlier side.
Lynn Peoples:Like again, rules can be broken.
Kate Moore Youssef:That's good to know.
Lynn Peoples:But, but yeah, they, the research shows that the earlier the better because your body is more primed to handle incoming calories earlier in the day and your bigger meals should be on the earlier side.
Lynn Peoples:Like brunch time is when your body is most ready to handle, especially carbohydrates coming in.
Kate Moore Youssef:Okay.
Lynn Peoples:So if you could, I mean, kind of the opposite of how we tend to eat, which is, you know, the dinner meal being the bigger meal.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'd be interested to ask.
Kate Moore Youssef:Tell me a little bit about what your thoughts are with power naps.
Kate Moore Youssef:Siestas.
Kate Moore Youssef:What does that do to our circadian rhythm?
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, the scientists I talked to about that suggest that power naps can be great.
Lynn Peoples:They can be really helpful to, yeah, keep productive through that circadian dip that happens in the afternoon particular.
Lynn Peoples:But they advise to keep them short, like really no more than 20 minutes as early as you can during the day.
Lynn Peoples:Because the later you have it, the nap, the longer the nap, the more that's going to encroach on your ability to fall asleep at night.
Kate Moore Youssef:Okay.
Lynn Peoples:And that's due to this combination of your circadian rhythm as well as your sleep kind of propensity or the sleep homeostat, which is this other system that interacts with the circadian system that I talk about in the book.
Lynn Peoples:But yeah, earlier short can be great.
Lynn Peoples:Combine that with a little walk outside in the daylight and you know, it could be good to go in the afternoon.
Kate Moore Youssef:And what are your thoughts on like using caffeine to hack our sleep and I'm gonna give you a bit of a flip from the, from the night owl of the early, the early morning lark.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I have heard this as well with, you know, other ADHD people.
Kate Moore Youssef:I know you that quote of 78%, but I have heard where they are up and the minute the eyes are open.
Kate Moore Youssef:This is my husband.
Kate Moore Youssef:He's like Mr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Efficient, Mr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like just loads of jobs.
Kate Moore Youssef:But yeah, you know, like what he does between the hours of 6am and 10am Most people probably wouldn't be able to get done in a full day, but he's just like.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then from about midday, his energy levels start dipping.
Kate Moore Youssef:So it, I mean, I guess it's kind of a being like a shift worker or something that you have to kind of play to your, your genetic makeup.
Kate Moore Youssef:But if you're constantly fighting.
Kate Moore Youssef:So he, you know, his working day is nine till, you know, five, say, then he comes home.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've got kids, we've got homework, we've got rotors, we've got dinner.
Kate Moore Youssef:It doesn't quite work with our life because he's so tired by 9pm yeah.
Lynn Peoples:I'm so fascinated by all this.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, we are all, we all tic differently and.
Lynn Peoples:Sounds like your husband.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, definitely has the genes in his circadian cox that just pull him earlier in the day and the other difference.
Lynn Peoples:So, you know, we all fall in a different place kind of on that curve as to when we're inclined to sleep and wake.
Lynn Peoples:But along with that is there's different times of day that we are prime to be most productive, strongest, fastest.
Lynn Peoples:Those things are all slightly different for each of us individually, but they are tied to our circadian rhythms.
Lynn Peoples:Like, for example, I mean, for me, I'm most productive late morning time if I'm keeping my rhythms sort of in check.
Lynn Peoples:And on average, most people are at their peak athletic performance in the late afternoon or early evening.
Lynn Peoples:So it's interesting, depending on the task at hand, you know, there's probably different times of day that you are best to try to tackle that task.
Lynn Peoples:So, yeah, sounds like you and your husband are slightly different.
Lynn Peoples:And it's unfortunate the way society has scheduled us.
Lynn Peoples:You know, if his workplace could potentially be more flexible and allow him to work earlier, you know, they'd probably get more productivity out of them.
Kate Moore Youssef:But it, it kind of also just shows that we all are unique and we have to lean into where those productive moments are, where and when we are feeling like we need to rest, that we have to rest then and not to judge.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like we, you know, if you kind of look neurotypical, neurodivergent.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's just differences.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's not right or wrong.
Kate Moore Youssef:But our society has.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm interested to know, in the research that you did, did you come across any countries, cultures, societies past and present that kind of like had.
Kate Moore Youssef:Nailed it.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like we're just doing things right or not right, but like just doing things.
Kate Moore Youssef:So the circadian rhythm supported really well?
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, that's a good question.
Lynn Peoples:It's funny, I mean I think first person that pops into my mind, it's not, I guess it's not a culture, but it's.
Lynn Peoples:I mean there's individuals out there who do live more according to their inner clocks, kind of, you know, by choice.
Lynn Peoples:So there was a man I met when I did my experiment where I went down in the bunker for 10 days and he worked at this former nuclear missile silo and he, you know, lived, he lived out of a Winnebago and just kind of adopted this older fashioned lifestyle where he, you know, he listened to radio at night rather than like watching screens.
Lynn Peoples:He kind of set a regular bedtime for himself and a wake up time and, and his eating schedule and he was like outside most of the day or like, you know, when he wasn't down in the bunker, he was Kwistal window or whatever.
Lynn Peoples:So he was just, just seemed more in tune and he was, had this like old fashioned sort of disposition and even the way he dressed.
Lynn Peoples:So it was like you know, sort of a time capsule back in time.
Lynn Peoples:So I think, you know, the Amish culture like in Pennsylvania and the US and Ohio that you know, they sort of shun technology, a lot of it and they spend more time outside.
Lynn Peoples:You know, they're really.
Lynn Peoples:It's kind of going back a little closer to how humans evolved.
Lynn Peoples:You know, we evolved mostly outdoors.
Lynn Peoples:You know, we were eating during daylight hours, we weren't raiding a fridge at midnight.
Lynn Peoples:And they're, you know, sort of still living that lifestyle which is just more in tune with nature and the planet's like natural day, night cycle.
Lynn Peoples:So, you know, I'm not as well versed, you know, in populations across the world, but there were studies of.
Lynn Peoples:Actually now that I'm saying that there's studies of different indigenous populations out there and even looking at once electric lighting was introduced, how that changed their kind of their rhythms, like when people went to sleep and when they woke up and not surprising it changed.
Lynn Peoples:You know, people stayed up later probably part partly behaviorally because they could, they had a way to see and do things, but also the Science suggests that light at night does prolong how long it takes our melatonin to start rising to help kind of trigger the biological effects that lead us to be able to sleep.
Lynn Peoples:And it delays our rhythms.
Lynn Peoples:So a few things at play there.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:I've been to Iceland, not in the summer, but near the summer.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we went to Lapland, Finnish Lapland, in the winter.
Kate Moore Youssef:And at 2:30pm it went dark in.
Kate Moore Youssef:In Finland.
Kate Moore Youssef: d they were saying, you know,: Kate Moore Youssef:On a summer's day in Iceland, it's like bright sunlight.
Kate Moore Youssef:People go hiking.
Kate Moore Youssef:He was telling me that they have the best time because they finish work, then the kids, like, they have a barbecue and then they chill and then they go hiking.
Kate Moore Youssef:And they're not in bed till like 1am every night.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And it's not even dark.
Kate Moore Youssef:Then there's like two or three hours of darkness maybe.
Kate Moore Youssef:I don't even know if that's true.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that's their cycle for the summer.
Kate Moore Youssef:And he and I said, but then you have to get used to the complete extreme in the winter and how that plays havoc on their mood and their hormones and sleep and all of that.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I guess if you are indigenous to that country, I wonder if biologically and genetically you kind of just deal with it like you're more resilient to it.
Kate Moore Youssef:I don't know what you know about that.
Lynn Peoples:There is some data suggesting that.
Lynn Peoples:That those populations that moved or migrated to these regions at an earlier time are just more adapted and perhaps less prone to like, seasonal.
Lynn Peoples:Effective seasonal affective disorder in the wintertime.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:I spent some time in Alaska during the midnight sun around the summer solstice and hung out with a group of people who lived in Anchorage.
Lynn Peoples:And they were talking about this like the.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, they almost described it as this kind of manic depressive or this bipolar experience throughout the year.
Lynn Peoples:In summer, it was just like that.
Lynn Peoples:You know, you're taking advantage of all that daylight and you're just going, going, going.
Lynn Peoples:And then in the winter, it's almost like.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, it's the opposite.
Lynn Peoples:It's almost hibernating.
Lynn Peoples:Right.
Lynn Peoples:And it's.
Lynn Peoples:It's interesting because also when you think about the impacts of light we can see with.
Lynn Peoples:Light obviously creates the picture of the world for us through our visual system.
Lynn Peoples:It impacts our circadian system, which is what we're more recently understanding and still piecing together.
Lynn Peoples:Then it has more and more effects that we're actually still adding to as well.
Lynn Peoples:But one of them is a stimulating effect.
Lynn Peoples:If you got light late at night, it's not only delaying the onset of your melatonin, it's not only potentially kind of shifting the hands of your clock, but it's also directly stimulating your brain and keeping you alert.
Lynn Peoples:So all those things together.
Lynn Peoples:And I mean, I experienced this myself.
Lynn Peoples:We were camping for a few nights in Denali national park under the midnight sun, and I was just, like, wired.
Lynn Peoples:You know, I wasn't sleeping well because it was never dark.
Lynn Peoples:And we were staying up later on a campfire talking till, like, yeah, two in the morning.
Lynn Peoples:But I was, you know, I had.
Lynn Peoples:It was energized during the day.
Lynn Peoples:It was sort of manicy feeling.
Kate Moore Youssef:But I guess for a short period of time, that's okay.
Kate Moore Youssef:But when it's like weeks and weeks at a time, that's hard.
Kate Moore Youssef:And like you say, that's that.
Kate Moore Youssef:That sort of stimulating.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, I find that when it's a full moon, I know there's lots of energies and everything with the full moon, but I can almost feel the brightness of the full moon kind of stimulating me, and I feel wired from it.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm very sensitive to all sorts of things, and I'm quite sensitive to the moon and that brightness of the full moon.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm wired for about four nights, just before and just after.
Kate Moore Youssef:Is there anything to do with the circadian rhythm?
Lynn Peoples:I mean, I find it so fascinating.
Kate Moore Youssef:Me too.
Lynn Peoples:This is like, we're just starting to try to tease this out, but there's a researcher here in Seattle who's really interested in the lunar effects on our circadian rhythms.
Lynn Peoples:And he studied local college students around a full moon and was comparing them.
Lynn Peoples:I can't remember the details of the study, but comparing to these groups of people and the impacts of the full moon, time of month on their sleep timing, it showed that they were delayed.
Lynn Peoples:But because they're in an urban setting and then looking at this other population, he's hypothesizing that it's not the light of the moon, but potentially something else about that comes with the lunar cycle.
Lynn Peoples:So whether that's like, you know, a magnetic field change or something like that, that, you know, we evolved with all these cycles, right?
Lynn Peoples:We had the day, night cycle, we had the lunar cycle.
Lynn Peoples:Some creatures on Earth had, you know, the.
Lynn Peoples:The tides.
Lynn Peoples:All these things were cyclical.
Lynn Peoples:So it made sense evolutionarily for our physiology to adapt to that and to be able to predict and anticipate those changes, which is exactly what our circadian clocks are doing.
Lynn Peoples:You know, on A day to day basis.
Lynn Peoples:So, yeah, time will tell, you know, the impact.
Lynn Peoples:But there is something, there is definitely something.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's, it is fascinating.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I guess as women as well, like, we're working with our hormones and we know that, you know, a lot of women feel that towards the end of their cycle towards menstruation that our sleep goes down because our progesterone is kind of going down, estrogen is going down and all of that.
Kate Moore Youssef:And how does that, like our hormones impact the circadian rhythm and vice versa, like, what's the interaction there?
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:Also some cool research coming out explaining some of those connections.
Lynn Peoples:We're finding that, you know, birth control pills manipulating our rhythms can, I mean, they've even suggested, like, break our clocks.
Lynn Peoples:Birth control pills really dampen those rhythms that we have throughout the day.
Lynn Peoples:They're finding that drops in estrogen, especially, you know, the major plummet that we get around menopause, that, that really dampens circadian clocks for women.
Lynn Peoples:And they're now suggesting, I mean, there's more research that needs to be done here, but they're suggesting the likely tie between that and a host of chronic diseases.
Lynn Peoples:Those risks that rise for us as we hit middle age and beyond.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, that, that could have to do with these dampened circadian rhythms.
Kate Moore Youssef:So we.
Kate Moore Youssef:Are you talking about things like dementia, diabetes, cardiovascular.
Lynn Peoples:Yep.
Kate Moore Youssef:Okay.
Lynn Peoples:Yep.
Lynn Peoples:All these systems in our body are running on rhythms.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, that's, you know, I guess I haven't even gone back to the basics here, but I mean, our bodies are filled with these timekeepers.
Lynn Peoples:There's trillions of them, like every cell in our body.
Lynn Peoples:And it's driving our different systems to again, anticipate the changes throughout the day.
Lynn Peoples:So it's like anticipating when that food is coming in, for example, and being ready with the right hormones and everything to handle it.
Lynn Peoples:And so when that system is not as primed and as ready to deal with things, then these things coming in are more insulting on our body and can cause more harm and are just.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, they're finding a lot of mechanistic explanations for why that might lead to some of these conditions.
Kate Moore Youssef:So would you say things like processed food, all the electronics, the phones, the lighting, all of this sort of artificialness that's kind of crept into our, you know, modern society?
Kate Moore Youssef:Would you say that is directly impacting our circadian rhythm, which then is impacting the increase?
Kate Moore Youssef:Maybe this is why we're seeing this rise in dementia and type 2 diabetes and, I don't know, like these chronic diseases that have Just become so pervasive.
Kate Moore Youssef:Do you think they're all interconnected?
Lynn Peoples:I think it's a player.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, again, speaking for all the scientists that I've talked to, I don't, you know, there's a lot of things at play in our modern world and a lot of.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, like toxic chemicals that we are facing and the way we process our food these days.
Lynn Peoples:You mentioned that.
Lynn Peoples:So it's not the only player, likely, but the science really is suggesting that it is potentially a major player.
Lynn Peoples:Even some of those insults that we know about, like toxic contaminants and the impact on our body.
Lynn Peoples:There's now studies that suggest those impacts on our body may be via their impact on circadian rhythms.
Lynn Peoples:Air pollution, for example, we're finding, can affect your circadian rhythms.
Lynn Peoples:And when we know air pollution causes these other effects, so, you know, our lungs and our cardiovascular system, it could be potentially through its impact on our rhythms.
Lynn Peoples:So again, early, early days in some of this research.
Lynn Peoples:But yeah, I mean, yeah, these things, the way artificial, artificial light in particular, very clear that that is, it's really just kind of dampening that contrast in our days that our circadian clocks need to keep time.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I know you've, in the book you talk about, you know, the blue light glasses and the, the led, circadian lighting, all things like that.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like, do they live up to the hype?
Kate Moore Youssef:Like, what do you recommend?
Kate Moore Youssef:Because I can see, I mean, with any think, especially with ADHD and sleep, anything.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like, people jump on the kind of marketing and the materialistic sort of bandwagon, and all of a sudden there's a million products that become overwhelming within overwhelming.
Lynn Peoples:Right.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And it's kind of like, well, what, what is worth money?
Kate Moore Youssef:Like, what's worth spending money on?
Kate Moore Youssef:And what do we not need to spend the money on?
Kate Moore Youssef:And we can do kind of like ourselves.
Lynn Peoples:Naturally, starting with the basics can go a long way and not require going crazy high tech or spending a lot of money.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:Maybe investing in like one of those sun lamps or those bulbs that are brighter and heavier on the blue wavelengths rather than the warmer wavelengths for the daytime.
Lynn Peoples:And using those, but like more importantly, focusing on getting outside, like even just like 10 minutes here or there, 20 minutes in the morning is ideal.
Lynn Peoples:But getting doses of daylight throughout the day, trying to be as close as possible to a window, if you have the option, not everybody does.
Lynn Peoples:But incorporating as much of that just brightness, especially of the blue wavelengths or what the sun offers, those full spectrums.
Lynn Peoples:And then at night it's, I think it should be pretty easy to some extent.
Lynn Peoples:You can save energy just by turning the lights out and especially overhead lights.
Lynn Peoples:So just focus on maybe a table lamp.
Lynn Peoples:I've got a whole suite of electric candles throughout my apartment that, you know, I can like turn on with a remote and especially this time of year.
Lynn Peoples:It's really cozy.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, that is nice.
Lynn Peoples:And it's, it's a nice way to kind of wind down and, and as I've gotten used to that, I mean, the eyes don't need that much light to see.
Lynn Peoples:We evolved our rods can adjust pretty easily.
Lynn Peoples:So it's not like you're going to trip and fall with minimal amount of light.
Lynn Peoples:And those for those table lamps, that's when you want kind of the warmer dimmer bulbs.
Lynn Peoples:So they do make, you know, now with LEDs, a variety of kind of colors, even some that you can use the same light bulb and change the color throughout the day.
Lynn Peoples:But that, you know, that takes a little more thought and work.
Lynn Peoples:So if you just want to keep it super basic, just like maybe overhead lights keep bright and blue, turn them off at night, table lamps turn on at night, have them warm.
Lynn Peoples:Dimmer and blue light blocking glasses can help.
Lynn Peoples:I don't think they're necessary, but like if you are having to sit in front of a computer late at night or you're at a friend's house and they refuse to turn off the overhead lights.
Lynn Peoples:Speaking for myself being obnoxious, I, you know, I might put those on.
Lynn Peoples:I don't use them on the regular.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, I think what you're saying is going to relate to so many people because when with ADHD or neurodivergence, I have noticed my whole family, we hate the big bright lights.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so we have everything's on a dimmer and we have light low lighting.
Kate Moore Youssef:Or I go into my kids room and they've just got, you know, just like a lamp on.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that's not because they know all about the circadian rhythm.
Kate Moore Youssef:That's purely from an intuitive perspective.
Kate Moore Youssef:Bright artificial lights are like overly stimulating.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like it's a sensory thing for me.
Kate Moore Youssef:Way before I knew about adhd, I craved outdoor light like I craved to be outside.
Kate Moore Youssef:And the artificial lighting in the office where I used to work would give me a migraine.
Kate Moore Youssef:It would overstimulate me.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'd leave work and I'd be like just jittery and irritable and I didn't really make the connection.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then when I stopped working from an office and I work from home and I had more Access to being outside and not those awful lighting.
Kate Moore Youssef:I was a much calmer version of myself.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so I genuinely think, like, as neurodivergent people, we're kind of so sensitive to all the external stimuli that we're kind of.
Kate Moore Youssef:The research.
Lynn Peoples:The guinea pigs.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, we kind of, like, are so sensitive that we do all the guinea pigging and then we feed it out to the rest of the population and kind of say, we told you this was not good for you 20 years ago, but everyone told us we were too oversensitive.
Lynn Peoples:Right.
Lynn Peoples:Now you have the data now you believe.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, exactly.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so it just.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's just funny because we.
Kate Moore Youssef:We feel all of this so much and what impacts our sleep for someone else.
Kate Moore Youssef:It might take 10 years of doing that thing, but we could just do it for like, two months and our sleep's completely derailed.
Kate Moore Youssef:But again, obviously, I'm generalizing and hypothesizing, but tell me a little bit.
Kate Moore Youssef:I know that a lot of people take melatonin with ADHD and it helps to regulate or improve sleep.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I'm interested to know what your thoughts are.
Kate Moore Youssef:And especially because here in the uk, we can't get melatonin over the counter and why.
Lynn Peoples:Oh, that's right.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah, I forgot that that is the case there.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:I guess fortunate in the US we can.
Lynn Peoples:It is wildly popular now for good or ill.
Lynn Peoples:I think there are a lot of doctors that are concerned that it's being overused, especially among children.
Lynn Peoples:But it can be very helpful in certain circumstances.
Lynn Peoples:And I have still now, you know, I don't take it that often, but when I do, I've learned from scientists how to take it properly, because if it.
Lynn Peoples:If you don't take it right at the right time, it can actually make things potentially worse.
Lynn Peoples:So by that, I mean, if you take it right before you want to go to bed, it may actually delay your onset of melatonin and your ability to sleep at least, you know, the following night.
Lynn Peoples:Because your best time to take it is when your natural melatonin is starting to rise.
Lynn Peoples:And that happens about two or three hours before your typical bedtime.
Lynn Peoples:So if you take it right before you go to bed, it's kind of stimulating, or this.
Lynn Peoples:This natural rise, which again, is pushing everything off.
Lynn Peoples:But if you take it two or three hours before bed, it gives a little.
Lynn Peoples:A little extra to your melatonin rise, which is going to help help you fall asleep in two or three hours.
Lynn Peoples:So if you cut.
Lynn Peoples:If you get caught in this insomnia, insomnia cycle, which happens to me a lot.
Lynn Peoples:You know, if I want to try to go to bed at 10, I think about taking melatonin maybe 7:30ish or something and taking a small dose, like less than a milligram.
Lynn Peoples:A lot of the products, at least in the US are like 5mg and that is way more than you need and has a higher likelihood of making you kind of hungover or drowsy the next day because it's so much.
Lynn Peoples:So smaller dose earlier in the evening.
Lynn Peoples:And that could potentially help you fall asleep earlier and avoid kind of that, that vicious spiral snowball effect that can happen by.
Kate Moore Youssef:That's really interesting.
Kate Moore Youssef:So why do we do know why we can't get it over the counter here in the uk, but in Europe and America we.
Lynn Peoples:I wish I had an answer to that.
Lynn Peoples:I mean it could have to do with the fact that, I mean there is concern that it's, you know, being overused and potentially has, has effects that we don't fully understand yet on your physiology.
Lynn Peoples:I think on the whole scientists think it, you know, it's pretty safe when used appropriately and you know, maybe not super regularly, but I don't have an answer for that question.
Lynn Peoples:I'm curious now.
Lynn Peoples:I'll look it up.
Lynn Peoples:But yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And when you say not regularly, so you would you say that if you're dependent on it to sleep, is that a problem?
Lynn Peoples:I think so.
Lynn Peoples:And I, I can't directly point to a study or data offhand.
Lynn Peoples:I just think there, there is concern out there and I think it's, you know, we might not understand fully how that's going to affect how your body naturally produces hormones on the long term.
Lynn Peoples:If you keep putting this artificial supplement into your body, the key is to.
Kate Moore Youssef:I guess stimulate the melatonin naturally by doing the things like getting outside early on in the morning.
Kate Moore Youssef:Look.
Kate Moore Youssef:And maybe not putting sunglasses on first thing in the morning.
Kate Moore Youssef:Getting that natural daylight.
Lynn Peoples:Yes.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:Okay.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that then stimulates the melatonin to hopefully come into play when it needs to.
Kate Moore Youssef:Towards the end of the day.
Lynn Peoples:Exactly.
Lynn Peoples:Yeah.
Lynn Peoples:Those three things, it's like that, the contrast, light, dark, constricting, again, the mealtime has to do with your melatonin too.
Lynn Peoples:I mean, keeping your rhythms in check and then consistency.
Lynn Peoples:So if you like are doing these same things, at least some of them every day on the regular, you're going to get a natural melatonin rhythm and it's going to be a stronger rhythm.
Lynn Peoples:So again, if you, if your circadian rhythms are disrupted, if you're kind of your schedule's all over the place, then that melatonin rises may not be as strong and that's going to make it harder to fall asleep.
Kate Moore Youssef:One of the things that I loved from your book was about the breast milk and how if you pump breast milk in the morning and you give it to your child at night, it's got all different kind of like hormones and stimulants to.
Kate Moore Youssef:Because it's like morning breast milk.
Kate Moore Youssef:And if you give your baby breast milk from the night, it hasn't got the same components to kind of keep them satiated and alert during the day.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that to me was just like how clever is the human body and evolution?
Kate Moore Youssef:And we're trying to mess with all these things but actually that in itself that like with the breast milk was just, for me just mind blowing because it's like we, we've been dampened, our intuition's been dampened so much by society and technology, but actually our body, it still knows.
Kate Moore Youssef:It still knows what we need, when we need it and how we need it and how to look after ourselves.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I think that breast milk analogy was just amazing.
Lynn Peoples:And it's, I mean, not that a parent doesn't have a gazillion other things to worry about, but thinking about that, it's pretty easy tweak, you know, like maybe labeling a.m.
Lynn Peoples:and p.m.
Lynn Peoples:breasts or milk that you've pumped and could help everybody sleep through the night if you time it right.
Lynn Peoples:Right.
Lynn Peoples:I think, I think it, yeah, really fascinating.
Kate Moore Youssef:Well, I just want to thank you so much for this conversation, but for the book and I think for anyone that is interested in sleep and improving sleep and understanding the circadian rhythm, I think this is a fantastic book because it really delves into brain health, productivity, mood health recovery.
Kate Moore Youssef:And yeah, for me it was, it was a real eye opener and it also helped me let go of certain things as well.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like there was some things out of my control and so thank you so much.
Kate Moore Youssef:I presume it's available on all platforms and anywhere you can buy books.
Lynn Peoples:Exactly, yeah, you can find it.
Lynn Peoples:You can find it anywhere.
Lynn Peoples:And my Website, Lynn P.
Lynn Peoples:Peoples.com I have links to a bunch of sites to purchase from and has more details on the book as well.
Kate Moore Youssef:If you uncover anything else very interesting that you think we need to hear about, please come back because I'd love.
Lynn Peoples:To talk to you.
Lynn Peoples:I would love to.
Lynn Peoples:It's been a pleasure talking to you.
Lynn Peoples:Thank you, Lynn.
Kate Moore Youssef:Likewise.
Kate Moore Youssef:Thank you.
Kate Moore Youssef:If you've enjoyed today's episode, I invite you to check out my brand new subscription podcast called the Toolkit.
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Kate Moore Youssef:This is going to be an amazing resource for you to support you and guide you even more on more niche topics and content conversations so you can really thrive and learn to live your best life with adhd.
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Kate Moore Youssef:Please just check out it's Toolkit on Apple Podcast.
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