Boosting ADHD Brain Health with Neurofeedback
Could brain health training be the key to improving focus, emotional regulation, and overall wellbeing?
In this episode, I’m joined by Natalie Baker, a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and Certified Neurofeedback Trainer, to explore how neurofeedback transforms ADHD management without medication.
With over 25 years of experience, Natalie explains how this non-invasive technique helps retrain the brain, breaking maladaptive patterns and promoting greater calm, focus, and resilience. We also discuss how integrating neurofeedback with lifestyle changes, mindfulness, and nutrition can amplify its effects on long-term mental wellness.
We’ll explore how neurofeedback works to help regulate brain function, particularly for women with ADHD who often juggle multiple roles and face unique challenges. Natalie explains the process in a straightforward way, highlighting how this brain training can lead to a calmer, more focused life. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by the complexities of ADHD or are curious about alternatives to medication, this episode might just be what you need to hear.
What You’ll Learn:
✨ How neurofeedback works and why it’s a powerful tool for ADHD health management
✨ The link between hypervigilance, trauma, emotional regulation, and brain training
✨ Why training as a family can improve communication and support
✨ The long-term benefits of neurofeedback and its potential for dementia prevention
✨ How neurofeedback fits into a holistic approach to ADHD and mental health
✨ How rewiring our brain helps release grief, stuck emotions and trauma
Timestamps:
🔹 10:20 – Understanding neurofeedback and how it works
🔹 13:07 – The connection between hypervigilance and neurofeedback
🔹 27:42 – The emotional journey of brain training
🔹 31:24 – Using neurofeedback to manage ADHD
🔹 44:03 – Neurofeedback and dementia prevention: A new frontier
If you’re curious about alternatives to medication or looking for a science-backed way to support ADHD, this episode will open your eyes to the power of neurofeedback in transforming brain health.
Find out more about Natalie's work on Instagram, @neurofeedbacktrainingco or via her website, www.neurofeedbacktraining.com
Find Kate's popular online workshops and free resources here.
Kate Moryoussef is a women's ADHD lifestyle and wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity and clarity.
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Speaker A:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Speaker A:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Speaker A:Here's today's episode.
Speaker A:I am today investigating some very interesting, dangerous, different options for helping our ADHD symptoms, pain points, challenges, and this is an option that doesn't involve medication.
Speaker A:It's called neurofeedback.
Speaker A:I've not used it myself, but I am very interested to learn more, ask more questions.
Speaker A:And I have with me Natalie Baker and she is a licensed mental health counselor.
Speaker A:She's a certified neurofeedback trainer with over 25 years of experience in private practice.
Speaker A:And she's also the founder of neurofeedback training company.
Speaker A:She specializes in the Neuro Optimal system, which is a non invasive approach to help regulate brain function and improve mental health.
Speaker A:And Natalie has also been a longtime advocate for neurofeedback as a powerful tool for managing adhd, anxiety and other mental health challenges.
Speaker A:And in addition to her clinical work, she's a brain health and wellness coach dedicated to empowering individuals, especially women and mums, to enhance their well being through neurofeedback and mindfulness practices.
Speaker A:Natalie, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker B:I'm excited to speak with you.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I mean, I said just before that I'm not familiar with neurofeedback.
Speaker A:I've not used it myself, but I have been hearing more and more about it and actually I'm very intrigued to ask the questions and learn more because if I'm intrigued, I know that a lot of my listeners will.
Speaker A:Can you tell us a little bit more about what it is if people don't know if they've never experienced it before?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:So neurofeedback is an extension of biofeedback.
Speaker B:So biofeedback is using our conscious awareness and monitoring a certain variable such as our heart rate or skin temperature.
Speaker B:And when that changes, we get a signal to do something to intervene to lower our stress response.
Speaker B:It might be that our heart rate goes up and we become aware and we take a deep breath and that lowers our heart rate.
Speaker B:That's biofeedback.
Speaker B:As computers have become faster and cheaper, we then have the opportunity to measure not things that are like heart rate and skin temperature.
Speaker B:Now we can measure and give feedback about the electrical communication of the brain.
Speaker B:The brain communicates, it performs function through two vehicles.
Speaker B:One is chemicals, neurotransmitters, and the other is electricity.
Speaker B:So with neurofeedback, we're measuring the electrical activity of the brain and we're giving feedback, but it's not feedback to our conscious selves because we all know that when we try to consciously affect brain function, it doesn't work because so much of our brain function is unconscious, it's automatic.
Speaker B:And so neurofeedback is giving feedback about the brain's decisions, but directly to the brain through audio or visual feedback.
Speaker B:And I can go into more detail about like how is that possible?
Speaker B:But I'll just kind of give that basic answer and I'll say in mental health, which is my background as a psychotherapist, you know, when someone comes in with anxiety, depression, adhd, part of our challenge is how do we get that brain to stop doing those maladaptive patterns.
Speaker B:So anxiety and depression are the brain being stuck in the fight flight, freeze response chronically.
Speaker B:And we as part of our goal, we want to interrupt that.
Speaker B:We want the brain to see that it's doing the wrong thing to problem solve in the present moment, right?
Speaker B:Using the punch it run from it energy, which is anxiety or the collapsed, freeze, powerless depressive response to face life's challenges.
Speaker B:That's not effective and it's very frustrating.
Speaker B:And, and so I think it's important as a foundation for us to understand that that's the automatic functioning brain that is in a habitual pattern without having the opportunity to recognize it's doing the wrong strategy to problem solve.
Speaker A:Okay, so what I'm understanding is that it's sort of breaking patterns.
Speaker A:It's helping to break patterns.
Speaker A:I trained in neuro linguistic programming, which is kind of what you're saying there.
Speaker A:Yours is obviously a bit more sophisticated.
Speaker A:But when we understand that we can rewire our brain pathways is the neural programming, it's very powerful.
Speaker A:So we can do that with sort of repetition and questioning like thoughts and all of that.
Speaker A:So is that kind of what is happening when we're wearing the headset?
Speaker A:Because I've seen the pictures and we've got like the wires, you know, stuck in our head.
Speaker A:Is this sort of like Next, next level version of neuro linguistic programming.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great adjunct therapy.
Speaker B:And there's lots of ways that we try to like emdr, you know, eye movement desensitization training is another example of we're trying to get that automatic functioning brain to reset.
Speaker B:And so neurofeedback is a more sophisticated version because we're giving that feedback directly to the limbic brain.
Speaker B:So that reptilian brain of ours, that's in charge of our survival.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that's a part of the brain that works independent of our prefrontal cortex, which is our thoughtful decider self.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So when we have adhd, you see, if you do a brain scan, you see that the prefrontal cortex is not as active as that limbic brain is, which is the impulsive, the scanning brain, the wanting to stay in go mode brain.
Speaker B:And so neurofeedback gives that brain the opportunity to reset out of those patterns.
Speaker B:And it really is brain training.
Speaker B:So we're all conditioned through the western medical model to really think about things in terms of like a, a pill, quote, unquote, that is going to be the thing that solves our problems.
Speaker B:And one of the things that has happened for me as a psychotherapist in bringing neurofeedback into my practice is to really think about brain health and mental health, cognitive health, as being a holistic issue.
Speaker B:And so how do we support optimal brain function as opposed to thinking about it purely as I have X condition, what is the one thing that I need to do to get rid of that X condition?
Speaker B:And that, in my experience, is not the most effective approach.
Speaker B:It's really to think about, well, what are all of the supports?
Speaker B:And then let's start with one knowing that as we create a good foundation, we can add other things such as looking at diet and lifestyle, the neurofeedback training, if there's some therapy, intervention, that's also going to be a good support, you know, and really thinking about a holistic approach to our health as opposed to having an X condition.
Speaker B:And then how do I get rid of those symptoms?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So my question is, someone comes to you and someone's presenting with anxiety overwhelm, they're presenting with maybe disorganization, memory, there's task switching, especially with, let's say, you know, hone in on women, parenting, working, perimenopause.
Speaker A:We've got this whole sort of cascading waterfall of symptoms that are sort of drowning us at the moment.
Speaker A:And we need help for our brains because we're not just sort of sitting at home and looking after ourselves.
Speaker A:We've got family, we've got teams, we've got partners, we've got relationships.
Speaker A:And sometimes, I'm going to say sometimes, most of my community who are discovering they've got ADHD in midlife are being derailed by perimenopause as well.
Speaker A:Can neurofeedback help with this array of symptoms I've just explained?
Speaker B:So what I tend to do, because the system that I use is really a system that is focusing on working on the global issue as opposed to specific symptoms.
Speaker B:It's not so much like, is this classic adhd, is this anxiety, is this actually trauma that's untreated, is this perimenopause?
Speaker B:The system I use doesn't care what it's doing is.
Speaker B:It is showing the brain millisecond by millisecond what its choices are.
Speaker B:So that brain decides what to do with the information.
Speaker B:So let's use the stress response as the example here.
Speaker B:So the brain goes into a certain kind of electrical dance right before it performs a function and shifts.
Speaker B:And so the system I use takes 256 data points per second, looking for that change, just to pause for a second on that 250 six data points per second.
Speaker B:That is how fast the brain is making decisions.
Speaker B:Millisecond by millisecond, when the system picks up on that change, that shift.
Speaker B:So the, the system uses auditory feedback to give the cue to the brain to pay attention.
Speaker B:So just to give you the visual, so you have sensors attached to your head, nothing goes into the brain.
Speaker B:It's just taking the electrical data from your scalp, it's feeding it into an amplifier, a little amplifier that changes it into numbers that the computer can read, the software can read.
Speaker B:And it's looking for the electrical dance that signifies the shift.
Speaker B:And in that millisecond, it interrupts music.
Speaker B:So the reason that it uses auditory feedback is because the brain uses auditory as a way to detect change in the environment.
Speaker B:Because we can listen even when we're asleep.
Speaker B:Again, this is part of our survival brain.
Speaker B:It's always scanning the environment for change.
Speaker B:In the millisecond that your brain's going into a state change, the music stops and it's as if it cues that automatic brain to pay attention.
Speaker B:What it's going to take in is what it was about to do.
Speaker B:Whether that was a good habit or a bad habit doesn't matter.
Speaker B:Then the brain will naturally compare it to the environmental needs.
Speaker B:What are our needs internally and what are the external environmental needs.
Speaker B:Now let's use hypervigilance as the example.
Speaker B:That's part of the stress response, that's part of our survival fight flight energy.
Speaker B:So if the brain gets cued and it pays attention and it recognizes, oh, I'm going into fight flight or I'm in fight flight, right?
Speaker B:I'm in hypervigilance.
Speaker B:And it also takes in the environment and goes, oh, I'm in a safe room.
Speaker B:Why am I going into hypervigilance when I'm in an environment that's non threatening?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That stress response is supposed to be used as my strategy when there's immediate danger.
Speaker B:And the brain defines immediate danger as in less than a minute I am going to receive bodily harm.
Speaker B:And so I have to scan for the bear, so to speak, because it could be on me in a second.
Speaker B:That's when we need our hypervigilant energy.
Speaker B:So again, going back to the neurofeedback session.
Speaker B:So the brain sitting there gets the opportunity to see I'm in hyper vigilance, but I'm sitting quietly in a room, why am I doing my hypervigilance?
Speaker B:So the brain then will use that data to pivot in the moment to be in alignment with the here and now.
Speaker B:The here and now is I'm in a safe environment.
Speaker B:So now I'm going to switch into my parasympathetic rest and digest regulated self because that's a good use of my energy and it's appropriate for the here and now.
Speaker B:So that's what happens sort of moment by moment during a session session which lasts 33 minutes.
Speaker B:But there's actually a more profound process taking place which is over your series of neurofeedback sessions.
Speaker B:The brain is learning something.
Speaker B:This is actually a learning device which is the brain is learning all the good information to be efficient with my use of energy and effective in my decision making is in the present moment.
Speaker B:So now it's getting that positive reward from the training as well because it's like, wow, I'm functioning better.
Speaker B:So it's like, well, I'm going to use this strategy even when I'm not hooked up to the system.
Speaker B:I'm going to come into the present moment, right?
Speaker B:Oh, I have work in front of me, I need my focusing brainwaves, I'm safe, I don't need to use my scattered scanning brain waves because I see it's safe and there's work in front of me.
Speaker B:And so then that brain pivots to that Focusing ability.
Speaker B:And so it's like learning a new language, you could say.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So when the brain has really done this practice and typically like three months of neurofeedback sessions, although every brain is different unfortunately, so we have to be very broad in our expectations.
Speaker B:But typically within about three months, that brain has learned to do this practice.
Speaker B:And so people start to notice in hindsight that they responded differently or better yet, that they didn't react and they actually had the opportunity.
Speaker B:Opportunity to be responsive.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So when we're out of that reactive mode.
Speaker B:And this is one of the things I love.
Speaker B:So going back to your question of like a woman is presenting with all these different issues, she can't get the house organized, her spouse is disappointed in her because she's not quote, unquote, performing well in all of her tasks.
Speaker B:And why not?
Speaker B:You said you were going to meet me at 8 and then you showed up at 8:30, you know, like, and, and then there's the perimenopausal issues.
Speaker B:So with the neurofeedback, when someone is presenting to me with all these issues, I start them with the neurofeedback because I say, let's see what your brain can accomplish with good information and how much reorganization can happen for first.
Speaker B:And then if they're still presenting with scatteredness, I just, I go into flooded mode when there's more than three tasks ahead of me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And we've done two months of neurofeedback, I'm like, okay, now I put on my investigator's hat and I'm like, what else is going on in this internal system or external environment that I'm not seeing the changes that I would expect.
Speaker B:And so that's usually when I recommend people go and do a good blood panel.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I don't know what the, what happens in the uk, but in the United States, if you really want a thorough blood panel, unfortunately it's an out of pocket expense.
Speaker B:Part of it will get covered, but part of it won't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But that information becomes essential for looking at what might be going on as an organic issue.
Speaker B:So if you think about it like an apple falling, Right.
Speaker B:You'll release an apple, it's going to fall to the ground because of the principle of gravity.
Speaker B:And so we would expect that brain to be able to downshift and be able to focus.
Speaker B:And so if it can't, then there's something that's creating a shelf.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the apple is landing on the shelf and it's not able to fall to the ground.
Speaker B:And sometimes it might also be trauma.
Speaker B:So what I see in people who are doing the neurofeedback and they're having emotional upheaval that's repeating itself and it has a certain content to it, then if it sounds like trauma content, that's when I'll encourage them to go and do some very specific trauma therapy around that issue of it might be not being safe in the world.
Speaker B:Again, there could be all sorts of contributors, but the neurofeedback creates a good foundation.
Speaker B:And then if there are things that are still re arising, then we'll do some deeper examination as to what are those pieces specifically about.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm really glad that you mentioned that because I was thinking about, you know, when you talk about the.
Speaker A:With the neurofeedback dealing with the electricity of the brain, we know that with the chemicals and dopamine with adhd, and then again, we know that estrogen plays a big part with dopamine.
Speaker A:So a lot of neurodivergent women suffer much worse with their menstrual cycles.
Speaker A:They're more likely to have pmdd, postnatal depression, they're more likely to have an earlier and a more difficult perimenopause.
Speaker A:So even though we can do all the rewiring of the brain, we know that sort of like chemically, there's still something off.
Speaker A:I'm glad that you said that because it's.
Speaker A:Some of it's so beyond our control.
Speaker A:We need that kind of like topping up of the hormones.
Speaker A:How does it work then?
Speaker A:I'm very sort of practical and I need like simplification and I kind of think, right, so you get the headset in the post and then you have it, you plug it into a laptop or what?
Speaker A:How does it work?
Speaker A:You plug it into its own little machine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So basically it's like a little computer bag.
Speaker B:So the, the hardware that the software is installed in is a surface tablet, just like, you know, like an iPad tablet type thing.
Speaker B:And then there is the little amplifier.
Speaker B:And attached to the little amplifier are the leads.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So those are the sensors.
Speaker B:You put conductive paste on them and, and you stick them on the head and you clip them to the ears.
Speaker B:And then on the tablet you open the program and then you just double click that person's name to start a session.
Speaker B:Super easy.
Speaker B:And then for 33 minutes they're sitting there.
Speaker B:And with kids, you know, I always say, like, make it something they enjoy.
Speaker B:So, you know, whatever is enjoyable for them to do with their eyeballs like, for some kids, it's playing a game on a separate device with the sound off so they can hear the music of the neurofeedback system.
Speaker B:Others, like my daughter, when she was little, she would do Lego.
Speaker B:That was something she liked to do.
Speaker B:And then for 33 minutes, the music's playing, the interruptions are happening.
Speaker B:You don't have to pay attention to them, which is so great with neurodivergent kids.
Speaker B:They don't have to focus in order for this to work, which is a very important thing.
Speaker B:Then you take the sensors off after the 33 minutes, and you close the program, and you want to do it consistently.
Speaker B:So every other day.
Speaker B:One of the challenges, I think, when you have an ADHD family is just getting those sessions in.
Speaker B:I always say, let's not start with an overwhelming expectation.
Speaker B:Let's start, like.
Speaker B:Let's start with what's manageable, right?
Speaker B:So if it's manageable to train one child first, like twice a week, and just get into the rhythm of that, right, then maybe we can add ourselves.
Speaker B:You know, one of the challenges I find in ADHD families is that parents and moms are really invested in helping their kids get better, and they're not as invested in helping themselves.
Speaker B:And so I always tell parents, you know, your child will do better with this training if you're also training.
Speaker B:And so if you can't do it for your own benefit, do it for your child's benefit.
Speaker B:But to start with a manageable, consistent training schedule for one person and then add a second person.
Speaker B:And if a parent, if a mom can start with themselves, sometimes that's better.
Speaker B:Because as soon as that brain starts to really get it and it starts to calm down and be able to focus, then we can start to really manage multiple schedules much easier.
Speaker B:So really, ideally, starting with, like, you know, like in the airplanes, you put on your own oxygen mask first and your child's.
Speaker B:With neurofeedback is a little bit like that.
Speaker B:But that's the basic setup and kind of the structure is like, put it at a time when you can set aside, like, 35, 40 minutes, and the person can be doing anything with their eyeballs.
Speaker A:I mean, what's really interesting, I'm thinking from a very practical perspective.
Speaker A:So someone comes into your office.
Speaker A:I know you can do it at home as well.
Speaker A:We'll talk about that in a minute.
Speaker A:But if someone's coming into your office and you say it's 33 minutes, and they sit there with the.
Speaker A:With the set on and the things on their, on their skull, what are they listening to?
Speaker A:What is actually happening?
Speaker A:Is it relaxing?
Speaker A:Is it calming?
Speaker A:Is it mindful?
Speaker A:Or are they having to do something?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker B:So because it's auditory feedback, people can do anything with their eyes.
Speaker B:And because it's the unconscious brain, they don't have to be focusing on something in order for it to work.
Speaker B:I always encourage people to use it as an opportunity to become better aware of their felt experience in their bodies.
Speaker B:We tend to be habituated to our thoughts, and that doesn't always give us good information about what our body's needs are.
Speaker B:I encourage people to close their eyes, to focus on their breath.
Speaker B:If people are chronically sleep deprived, they'll often fall asleep because as soon as those brains register a safe environment and that they don't have to do anything, those brains tend to want to go to sleep.
Speaker B:So some people will fall asleep, which is totally fine because it's auditory.
Speaker B:The brain's still going to hear the feedback.
Speaker B:Everybody is different in terms of what they notice.
Speaker B:So for some people, if they're sleep deprived, at the end of the session, they actually may feel really heavy in their bodies and like, what's this heavy feeling?
Speaker B:And then I'll ask them, you know, well, how much sleep are you getting?
Speaker B:You know, it might be that your body is now communicating, wow, I am tired.
Speaker B:Can you please get more sleep?
Speaker B:So one of the things I witness over and over again when people do neurofeedback is the line of communication, communication between that unconscious brain and our conscious selves gets clearer.
Speaker B:And so what the needs are start to really come out.
Speaker B:And sometimes people don't like that because they're like, but I can't get more sleep, right?
Speaker B:And so that's kind of an inconvenient truth.
Speaker B:And so, you know, when people ask me, well, what are the side effects?
Speaker B:And I say to them, you know, sometimes the side effects are that we get information that we don't like, we have a judgment about.
Speaker B:So if you've been someone who's been repressing emotions for a long time and you start to do neurofeedback, you know, repression takes a lot of energy.
Speaker B:So when the brain registers I'm safe, and then it goes, wow, I'm repressing all these emotions, that is exhausting, right?
Speaker B:Then guess what the brain's going to want to do?
Speaker B:It's going to want to start to lift off that lid of repression, and then you're going to start to feel right?
Speaker B:And some People don't want to feel.
Speaker B:They don't want to feel their pain, they don't want to feel their sadness, they don't want to feel their frustration or whatever it is, or past trauma.
Speaker B:And so then they're like, natalie, I'm having all these emotions.
Speaker B:This system isn't working because I wanted to just get calm.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Calm and focused.
Speaker B:So part of the process for me is education.
Speaker B:I want people to understand what is health.
Speaker B:And sometimes health is going through a process of bearing witness to.
Speaker B:To pain, to loss, to disappointment, you know, all sorts of things.
Speaker B:Sadness that we're scared to feel.
Speaker B:But that is the system wanting to work it through and then let it go.
Speaker B:It doesn't want to keep it in the system.
Speaker B:And so that's kind of the slightly messy side of neurofeedback, and frankly, just getting healthier is that we have to trust ourselves, our brain, our bigger self, that it's going on a journey towards health.
Speaker B:The early stages, we may not like it because it feels slightly uncomfortable or unfamiliar.
Speaker B:And so just trusting, going through that for other people, they don't go through that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And they just, you know, in general feel a little bit better.
Speaker B:Notice they're focusing better, they're less scattered.
Speaker B:Time management becomes easier.
Speaker B:So it varies person to person.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, it's kind of like you're unburdening this overload, isn't it?
Speaker A:So like you say, a lot of people have never gone there with their pain or maybe not even recognize it.
Speaker A:And again, what I hear a lot is women who have been diagnosed later on in life, there's a lot of grief there of all that could have been and all the things that they missed out on and the potential that they knew they had but didn't understand why it was never fulfilled.
Speaker A:And they look back and they think of different opportunities and possibilities that could have been relationships that may have worked if they'd known, if there was understanding there.
Speaker A:So for sure, I think there's a lot of grief and pain that people are holding onto.
Speaker A:I work with EFT with Emotional freedom technique, and it's very similar with the tapping, is that it sounds like a similar kind of like, process because we are kind of rewiring the brain when we're doing the tapping and we're releasing stuck energy and stuck emotions.
Speaker A:And a lot of people get quite shocked by how emotional they get and this physical feeling of the emotions moving through the body, especially when we can sort of feel it stuck in our throat or like in our chest or our Back or stomach.
Speaker A:Stomach or something.
Speaker A:But we always feel better after an EFT session because there's been a release.
Speaker A:And then sometimes when we've gone through say 30 minutes of tapping on the one specific topic, by the end of the session we'll say, well, how does that feel now?
Speaker A:And maybe they rated it at the beginning like a 10.
Speaker A:And they'll go, actually, it's only a 3 now the intensity is gone.
Speaker A:It's because we've allowed it to kind of come up almost like a bit of a volcano.
Speaker A:Allow.
Speaker A:Allowed it to have its say and then erupt and then it kind of goes back down and settles.
Speaker A:I guess there's similarities and it is.
Speaker A:It's all about allowing that subconscious part of our brain to have its say and release what it needs to release and then kind of find new neural pathways to reconnect.
Speaker A:And if I've used the right, right wording there, what I'm really interested in is if someone's listening to this and they're thinking, I would love to do this, but I haven't got a neurofeedback clinic near me.
Speaker A:I know you're based in New York.
Speaker A:You know what happens if someone says, I'd love to try this, love to try it at home.
Speaker A:Do I need a practitioner with me?
Speaker A:How does it work?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker B:So I started out just offering neurofeedback in my office.
Speaker B:And then because the system is fully automated, right.
Speaker B:So it's just information full for that brain to optimize its own performance.
Speaker B:There's no trainer that's required to be setting protocols or tweaking anything session by session, because it's always real time feedback, which is different than.
Speaker B:I'm going to make it a little more complicated here, which is the first generation of neurofeedback systems, which are called protocol or linear neurofeedback.
Speaker B:They were designed when computers weren't at the speed of the human brain so you couldn't give real time feedback.
Speaker B:And so those are the ones that require like a brain map.
Speaker B:And you have to do them in office and you have a trainer who sets protocols to basically try to create a bumper so that your brain waves stay in a certain range that is optimal for whatever you have.
Speaker B:So that kind of neurofeedback, you have to do it in office and you need an expert trainer.
Speaker B:So the neurofeedback that I use is fully automated.
Speaker B:And so what we just organically grew was a rental program.
Speaker B:So we ship all across North America we even ship to Europe and the UK and then people can hook themselves up at home.
Speaker B:It's very easy to do.
Speaker B:And they have a certified trainer who is there as a support for them while they're doing their home sessions.
Speaker B:And really for people who want to try it, I always say to them, you know, this is about giving the brain the opportunity to improve its own functioning.
Speaker B:So it is about optimization as opposed to like treating a condition.
Speaker B:And the other beautiful thing about training at home is that you can train family members as well.
Speaker B:And I have just seen the most beautiful things happen when family members train together.
Speaker B:They go from reactive communication to responsive communication.
Speaker B:So what does that look like?
Speaker B:Well, when the brain is caught in that fight, flight energy, right.
Speaker B:We tend to use irritability, impulsivity, freezing, going numb, not talking about things, fleeing the situation, right.
Speaker B:As the brain's just habitual strategies for having relationship.
Speaker B:And so when we have multiple family members train, right, we have nervous systems are connected.
Speaker B:All of our nervous systems are reading each other, whether we pay attention to that or not.
Speaker B:Typically we know when so and so comes in the house, whether they're in a good mood or a bad mood, right?
Speaker B:That's a connected nervous system.
Speaker B:So what happens is nervous systems re regulate into being open, sensing safety and security, being able to be responsive.
Speaker B:So what happens in the communication is now we can have pauses before we respond, we can just answer as opposed to using that emotional attack as the strategy to be powerful and have an impact.
Speaker B:We can pause and be thoughtful before we respond.
Speaker B:We can be open and loving.
Speaker B:So one of the common things I hear from men typically who are less self aware, less emotionally in attunement, more down in that kind of freeze response, right?
Speaker B:Kind of pushing down emotions when they're training.
Speaker B:And I check in with them, if they're coming into the office after like the first month, I'll say like how are things going?
Speaker B:And they'll typically respond with like, well, I don't know what's changed but boy, my partner loves that I'm doing this and wants me to continue.
Speaker B:And so then I say, well that's interesting, what are they observing?
Speaker B:And they're like, well they say that I'm like making eye contact and I'm asking questions more.
Speaker B:And so this is an interesting thing to observe, that when the brain perceives safety, if you're down in that freeze response habit, it naturally starts to connect because we are connected social creatures.
Speaker B:And so even when someone doesn't think that a there it's a problem, right?
Speaker B:Or they're, they're not, you know, a good partner.
Speaker B:Their system just organically shifts to being more connected.
Speaker B:So that's another kind of, you know, feature of being able to do it at home is that you get the whole family system to be able to just organically improve and become more connected.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:And especially as we know that, you know, if we're parenting children and we're neurodivergent ourselves.
Speaker A:So I'll give you an example for myself.
Speaker A:I was diagnosed at 40, my kids have got ADHD and I know my mum's got adhd, so my mum was parenting other kids with adhd.
Speaker A:I have two brothers as well.
Speaker A:And there would have been a lot of, there was a lot of chaos in the house and she didn't have the tools at the time to understand all of this, that there was a lot of reactivity, shouting, you know, all sorts going on.
Speaker A:And so we're then parenting the way we've been parented unless we have awareness.
Speaker A:And so what's happening here is you're sort of like breaking these cycles, aren't you, with the family?
Speaker A:So yes, it's amazing that we can do this with our kids, but actually if we are co regulating, like you say, that we are creating this environment of more calm and more regulation and less reactivity, how wonderful that even though everyone's got adhd, we're all finding ways, new tools and coping mechanisms.
Speaker A:And I really love this, I really love the idea of everyone being able to use this, this system.
Speaker A:So yes, this has been really fascinating because I hear so much, honestly I've been spoken to hundreds of people and yes, you know, nutrition 100%, movement 100% and mindfulness meditation, cold water therapy, like this, they've got all these different places for helping calm our nervous systems and calm our brain and the cortisol and all the different components that sort of are part of our adhd.
Speaker A:But I really like this because when we're talking about brain health, we do know that ADHD impacts our brain.
Speaker A:It is very much brain and then it goes down through our body and it shows up in our nervous system, it shows up in autoimmune conditions and gut health and chronic pain and sleep and addiction.
Speaker A:And we know that how it all filters, filters through.
Speaker A:And so if we're working with this, that might have an impact on say our pain or maybe or adrenals or how we sleep, hypermobility, lots of different things.
Speaker A:So I'm really, really interested in this now.
Speaker A:The other thing I would like to say is that I know this is not cheap, I know this is still a privilege for a lot of people and I know because as it's a relatively new type of therapy and it's quite sort of sophisticated, I was looking at the different prices and so would you say the most affordable option is, is renting it?
Speaker A:Like how, what would you say is the most sort of accessible way for people to use this?
Speaker B:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker B:Renting it is the most affordable.
Speaker B:And you know, I mean I chose this system because it's effective but the other reason I chose it is because people can use it at home, which makes the price point.
Speaker B:And as you said, it is still expensive relative to filling a prescription.
Speaker B:And that's not to say don't fill your prescription because for some people that's a very important part of working and supporting their adhd.
Speaker B:And I should say you can do neurofeedback and still be on your medication so they can work together.
Speaker B:But yes, it is an investment and for some people it's not an investment that they can afford.
Speaker B:But I really want people to think about the cost if it's in the realm of possibility, to think about, well, what is the cost of not doing the training?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because you know, we, for those of us who do have disposable income, you know, how what are we, what's the goal of using that money?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If we think about money as being the opportunity to make choices, what is the choice I'm making and why?
Speaker B:And so really to think about, you know, our kids school performance over time, you know, and our health and how much if we help support our brain health now, what are we going to save in future costs because we re regulate and now all of a sudden exercise seems doable.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I see this over and over again.
Speaker B:Addressing my diet now feels like approachable because I feel calmer, I feel more organized, I feel more resourced.
Speaker B:So I feel like I can take the risk, right, of looking at how much sugar I eat as example because I'm more regulated and what that saves us in health care costs in the future.
Speaker B:So yes, it is absolutely a financial investment.
Speaker B:Renting is definitely the most cost effective.
Speaker B:And you know, when you're training multiple family members, you know, it gets down to like in US dollars, like 10$20 a session, which is not expensive per session when you think about it in that way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm interested to know from a prevention perspective, is there any research that's coming out that it's good for dementia?
Speaker A:And I'm thinking, you know, I'm 44 and if I can do anything to help prevent dementia.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:There is some research that's coming out, unfortunately, saying that we have a higher chance of getting dementia with adhd.
Speaker A:And I just wondered if there is any sort of connection there.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I mean, one of the.
Speaker B:One of my favorite populations to work with, and this may seem unrelated, but it's connected, are people with head injuries.
Speaker B:So whether it is a concussion or multiple concussions, TBI or a stroke, a brain aneurysm, right?
Speaker B:What the neurofeedback is doing is it's giving that brain the opportunity to see what still needs work, what's not functioning optimally.
Speaker B:The brain, again, it goes into habitual patterns.
Speaker B:When you have a head injury, it does triage, it registers there has been an injury and it goes into a response, but then it becomes habitual again.
Speaker B:It doesn't see, doesn't take a fresh look at, well, how am I functioning now?
Speaker B:When you think about dementia, prevention, cognitive decline, this is a support because it's constantly reminding that brain, hey, pay attention to the choices you're making.
Speaker B:Are you making the best choices for your health, for your functioning?
Speaker B:And so in the same way you think about exercising your body for optimal performance, really think about exercising your brain for optimal performance as you age.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:I mean, this is sort of the new frontier is brain health and how the brain, like, we're learning, right?
Speaker B:Like, oh, wow, there's a big connection between now Alzheimer's and lifestyle, right?
Speaker B:And so there is a lot we can do and we just have to educate ourselves a little bit on how do we support brain health, because that's not something we've really thought a lot about.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And I mean, what would be amazing to see is this being available on insurance as, like, psychiatrists will prescribe this, say you can do this instead of medication, or the way your ADHD shows up.
Speaker A:I actually think that neurofeedback would be a better way because maybe you're not struggling with focus and concentration.
Speaker A:It presents so uniquely and so differently to everybody.
Speaker A:And we know that one person's ADHD is very different to another.
Speaker A:And I mean, we're just at the forefront of what, of this.
Speaker A:And I think neurofeedback is.
Speaker A:Is there.
Speaker A:And that's why I was so interested to talk to you about it, because we need more of it.
Speaker A:We need more of it here in the uk.
Speaker A:We need more people doing it, we need more people talking about it.
Speaker A:And I hope that it's going to become more accessible and it's not going to just be sort of for people that have, you know, disposable income, that there's a real option there for people.
Speaker A:So, Natalie, I just wanted to thank you so much for explaining it so beautifully, simplifying it, making it very practical so people can understand.
Speaker A:Because, you know, straight away they kind of think, oh, it sounds really complicated and all of that.
Speaker A:But I think the way you've explained it, it sounds like I can just do something really simple and easy and sit there, listen to something and, you know, do that once a week for three months and hopefully see some form of shift.
Speaker A:And if we can do that for ourselves, we can do that for our kids.
Speaker A:How wonderful to be able to look back a year later and say, I can really see a difference.
Speaker A:I can see that our environment and our home is calmer and it's more regulated and we are less reactive.
Speaker A:So tell me, you know, if someone's listening, we have a lot of listeners in the States, but if people who are, you know, outside of the states, like, what's the protocol?
Speaker A:How can they get in touch with you?
Speaker B:Yeah, so, I mean, they can go to my website.
Speaker B:We have a contact us page, neurofeedbacktraining.com and certainly, you know, we're here to, if it's not appropriate to ship you a system to rent, certainly to help you find, see if there's resources in the UK, my YouTube channel, Natalie Baker.
Speaker B:I have tons of educational videos.
Speaker B:So I just find the people who have the best outcomes are educated.
Speaker B:So if people are curious, there's lots of educational resources.
Speaker B:And yeah, we're here to kind of problem solve and figure out for people what's going to be good next steps for them.
Speaker A:Fantastic.
Speaker A:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker A:I'll make sure all the information's in the show notes.
Speaker A:And yeah, I look forward to speaking to you again soon.
Speaker A:I'd love to sort of catch up again and see what other new, new kind of things are out there, new findings that you're hearing.
Speaker A:So thank you so much.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:It's been a wonderful conversation and I so appreciate your advocacy and passion for your community.
Speaker B:So thank you for all that you're doing.
Speaker A:I really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
Speaker A:If you did and it resonated with you, I would absolutely love it if you could share on your platform or maybe leave a review and a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Speaker A:And please do check out my website, ADHD womenswellbeing.co.uk for lots of free resources and paid for workshops.
Speaker A:I'm uploading new things all the time and I would absolutely love to see you there.
Speaker A:Take care and see you for the next episode.
