Embracing Imperfection: Navigating Perfectionism with ADHD

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:23

Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:26

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:39

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:48

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:04

Here's today's episode.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:10

I am so delighted to welcome in Natalie Englander.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:14

Today we're talking perfectionism and Natalie is an accredited senior CBT therapist and she has helped hundreds of perfectionists overcome anxiety, stop overthinking, beat procrastination and build self confidence while they are discovering their late diagnosed adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:31

Now Natalie was diagnosed as well later on in life and she's probably been helping lots of other late diagnosed ADHD people whether they're aware or not.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:40

And now that you have this understanding of her own adhd, guiding other people to maybe see if it has been ADHD that has been dictating their perfectionism.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:49

So Natalie, welcome to the podcast.

Natalie Englander: 00:03:51

Thank you so much for having me.

Natalie Englander: 00:03:53

I feel like I'm slightly fangirling because I've listened to so many of your episodes on your podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:01

Well, you see how I'm winging it now, can't you?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:03

You can see it's like not the most professional, you know, way, but this is how we do it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:08

And interestingly is that I also used to be a bit of a perfectionist and now for me, letting go of that and just kind of like we had this conversation off air and it's a bit like, yeah, the dog barks, the doorbell rings, make a mistake, it's all fine, like it's edible.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:26

And if it's not, if it's not editable, this is like, this is the podcast and this is what people get and hopefully, you know, bumps and all, it'll, it's, it's worthwhile even if maybe sometimes it doesn't feel as professional as I would like.

Natalie Englander: 00:04:40

No one actually really wants that polished version of things anyway.

Natalie Englander: 00:04:44

If you think on social media the stuff we prefer is when we're seeing the more kind of raw truths and people's mistakes and mishaps and things.

Natalie Englander: 00:04:54

Generally we actually prefer that, oh, 100%.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:58

So let's sort of Rewind a little bit because I know that you have been a therapist for about 12 years now.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:05

I wonder, was your perfectionism the reason why you.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:09

You thought, right, I need to help other people here and that's why you specialized in it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:13

And I guess how did that show up for you?

Natalie Englander: 00:05:15

Yeah, definitely.

Natalie Englander: 00:05:17

I think probably from when I was a teenager and you had to pick your A levels.

Natalie Englander: 00:05:23

I did psychology and loved it and thought, I think I want to do something in this area.

Natalie Englander: 00:05:28

But alongside that at the same time is probably when my perfectionism started.

Natalie Englander: 00:05:35

And I guess it definitely had quite an impact on my life in a negative way.

Natalie Englander: 00:05:43

Just sort of constantly striving for perfection all of the time, kind of in all areas.

Natalie Englander: 00:05:51

And I guess as I got into my 20s and started my CBT training and working with people, I was just sort of more drawn to working with the perfectionists, I guess the ones who come along struggling with anxiety or perfect or depression.

Natalie Englander: 00:06:06

Sorry.

Natalie Englander: 00:06:07

But really what's going on and what's sort of keeping the problem going and is maybe a part of why they do a piece of work on their anxiety and depression and it gets better, but it comes back again a year later or five years later.

Natalie Englander: 00:06:19

It's because there's that sort of unresolved perfectionism stuff going on that they haven't really worked on.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:06:27

What's interesting is that we do hear this word perfectionism being bandaged around.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:06:31

It's very topical, you know, you can say attributed to maybe sort of TikTok videos and all of that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:06:35

But what is when you, you're seeing it as a therapist and not as this is a very surface layer of like your house being very tidy or your hair always being done and your makeup flawless.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:06:46

Like what does it look like on I guess the most debilitating level?

Natalie Englander: 00:06:49

Yeah, I guess on the most debilitating level it's where essentially you're basing your self worth on your achievements.

Natalie Englander: 00:06:57

So you're kind of only feeling as good as whatever your latest achievement is.

Natalie Englander: 00:07:03

And then if you don't achieve whatever the goal is that you'd set for yourself, then you feel absolutely rubbish about yourself.

Natalie Englander: 00:07:11

And I guess that's quite a dangerous place to be when your self worth is dependent on whether you're achieving or not, as opposed to always feeling worthy regardless of whether or not you fail at something or you don't pass an exam or you make a mistake or you don't get the job that you interviewed for.

Natalie Englander: 00:07:28

And I guess it can just keep people really stuck in some very unhelpful patterns, whether that's procrastinating, we're putting things off because we just feel like the pressure is too great because it needs to be perfect, or if we're constantly criticizing ourself and there's so much shame, I think that comes along with that really sort of unhelpful, unhealthy perfectionism.

Natalie Englander: 00:07:57

And of course it can contribute towards anxiety, depression, ocd, eating disorders.

Natalie Englander: 00:08:05

So it can have a really negative impact.

Natalie Englander: 00:08:08

Sure.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:09

Thank you for explaining that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:10

Because it is really important we sort of scratch beneath that surface and we understand that it's not just this surface.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:17

Like, you know, when you talk about eating disorders and anxiety and depression and it being fueled by this need to feel validated and worthy.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:26

And obviously that begins as children.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:28

If we're talking ADHD and perfectionism, what do you think those links are?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:34

Especially if we're sort of going back to childhood and looking at those beginning patterns of it?

Natalie Englander: 00:08:39

Yeah, well, I think for lots of people with adhd, whether they've been diagnosed when they were younger or if they've not been diagnosed until later life, so I guess were going through their childhood with undiagnosed adhd, is that the perfectionism can develop as a way to either cope with or sort of compensate for the struggles that, that they might be having with their ADHD symptoms.

Natalie Englander: 00:09:01

Whether it's stuff to do with inattentiveness and they're forgetful and that can create lots of shame or self criticism or also I guess criticism from other people, you know, teachers, parents.

Natalie Englander: 00:09:14

Why haven't you done your homework?

Natalie Englander: 00:09:15

Why have you forgotten to bring your books or whatever.

Natalie Englander: 00:09:19

And yeah, I think it sort of makes sense that so many people do develop perfectionism as a way to cope with having adhd.

Natalie Englander: 00:09:31

And that's why I think I often feel like we don't want to sort of slate perfectionism too much, which I think we can have a tendency to do because of course it can be really awful and it can be really unhelpful.

Natalie Englander: 00:09:44

But actually sometimes it can also be healthy and helpful.

Natalie Englander: 00:09:48

And I think particularly for people with adhd, it can, yeah, develop as a way to help them cope.

Natalie Englander: 00:09:53

There may be doing things almost a sort of scaffold life where perhaps they are now appearing really organized.

Natalie Englander: 00:10:04

But that's because they know if they don't write everything down or if they don't keep their calendar organized, they're not going to remember any of it and then they will be late or they will forget things.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:14

Yeah, I think definitely we're going to.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:16

We'll come on to that conversation.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:18

But I think it's important to say that there's been this scaffolding, but it's also overcompensating and it's quite an exhausting way to live, isn't it?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:27

When you're constantly second guessing yourself, you don't trust yourself.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:30

So everything you say, everything has to be written down.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:33

Double checking, rechecking, not feeling confident that what you've put out into the world isn't going to be criticized.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:41

I mean, I remember now like my handwriting's always been abysmal and people have said, you know, oh, you've got a writing of like a three year old or you are.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:50

Is that how you're going to be organized?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:52

Like when they see kind of like my notes or whatever.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:56

But I feel quite grateful that perfectionism hasn't been as blighting on me as other people.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:03

And I wonder, I look back and I see my mum, who's also definitely got adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:07

And actually she wasn't a perfectionist but that bothered me because I used to look at what she did and think, why doesn't she care?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:16

Like why didn't she care that this wasn't perfect or that wasn't right or the room didn't look, you know, or the food wasn't presented properly?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:25

And it bothers me because it was, for me it was important.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:28

But now I kind of look back and I think she's still quite like that, like she just doesn't really care.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:34

Whereas I do quite like things nice and presentable and things to look and taste good and the house to be tidy and all of that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:42

But I think her moderation has helped me dial it down a little bit because I've seen, whereas I know that other people that have lived with a perfectionist parent, that impact it can have can really be like the beginning stages of it just being all encompassing.

Natalie Englander: 00:12:00

Yeah.

Natalie Englander: 00:12:01

And I'd say I fit into that category of having perfectionist parents.

Natalie Englander: 00:12:07

So I guess my mum is the kind of person who the house would look absolutely perfect and spotless, the food would be perfectly presented and delicious and I guess everywhere you could sort of be perfect.

Natalie Englander: 00:12:24

And yeah, I guess when you grow up with that experience that kind of becomes your norm, that that's sort of what you're used to, that's what you like.

Natalie Englander: 00:12:32

But then also that's what you expect of yourself.

Natalie Englander: 00:12:36

And I think that's why for lots of people, and particularly women, that then it can kind of, if you have got either diagnosed or undiagnosed adhd, it can feel kind of quite jarring once, then you're an adult yourself and you're finding it harder to have this perfectly tidy house all of the time or to be a perfect cook.

Natalie Englander: 00:12:55

I guess, again, that word shame comes up, I think, a lot with perfectionists.

Natalie Englander: 00:13:00

It can certainly add to that sense of shame.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:03

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:04

And going back to that, I won't ask too many personal questions about your mum, but she must have been exhausted keeping this.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:11

I don't know if it was a facade or it was something that, you know, felt quite natural to her, but it is exhausting having to keep this external facade at this mask.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:21

You know, we know about this, especially with women diagnosed later on in life that we have been masking.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:27

And we know that the masking very much leads to burnout, leads to us just crumbling at some point, often during sort of hormonal times where we just don't have that grit, that resilience, the scaffolding, I guess, the internal scaffolding to kind of like keep it up and we do crumble and I guess we then feel like, even worse, like even more of a hot mess, even more or less in control and this backwards and forwards of like, why am I like this and why, why do I feel this need to sort of overcompensate?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:57

And then we get this understanding of ADHD and that's just kind of like the light bulb moment.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:03

But then it's kind of like, now what?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:05

And I want to talk to you about the now what.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:08

What kind of led you to your diagnosis when you knew that there was all these perfectionist sort of tendencies already there.

Natalie Englander: 00:14:14

Yeah.

Natalie Englander: 00:14:15

So I think for me, I was never the person who had sort of always wondered for, for years or over the years, which I know lots, lots of people have that experience.

Natalie Englander: 00:14:26

I was one of the ones who kind of had that real light bulb moment of like, oh, my God, I've got adhd.

Natalie Englander: 00:14:32

And I'd never sort of thought that before, but I think I definitely fit into that very common pattern of once you have kids, just that all the demands go up and so your kind of previous ways of managing things and coping, it's just not working in the same, same way anymore.

Natalie Englander: 00:14:54

And I've also got twins and I guess in terms of hormones, of course, when you're pregnant, your hormones are going crazy all over the place, and when you've got twins, it's like double the amount of hormones.

Natalie Englander: 00:15:08

And so I definitely experience so much of that baby brain that everyone talks about.

Natalie Englander: 00:15:15

And I mean, it was Just next level baby brain.

Natalie Englander: 00:15:19

Like I would drive home in my car, get out the car, go to the front door and then be like, oh God, I haven't turned the engine off or put the handbrake on and the car's going to roll towards the house.

Natalie Englander: 00:15:30

Like just so forgetful.

Natalie Englander: 00:15:33

And I think it kind of bought all of that stuff more to the surface for me to, to see or kind of notice more.

Natalie Englander: 00:15:41

And then I guess also really common for so many women, but once you have your baby, or for me babies again, your hormones are still just all over the place, especially if you've been breastfeeding for a period of time.

Natalie Englander: 00:15:56

And I think I just remember thinking and asking other women, does this the baby brain go at some point?

Natalie Englander: 00:16:02

Because mine isn't going.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:04

I feel like mine's just getting worse.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:07

And so I think that was sort of going on for me and bringing all of the, I guess more of the inattentive ADHD symptoms to the forefront.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:18

Of course all the demands had gone up.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:20

You know, you're looking after two babies, that's quite full on.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:23

And then going back to work, working as deputy clinical lead in an NHS service, also doing my private practice alongside, plus being a new mum.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:33

And I guess I just noticed feeling quite overwhelmed.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:37

I experienced anxiety or depression in the past and I remember thinking, I'm definitely not depressed, it's definitely not anxiety, but it's something.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:44

And I'm not sure.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:45

I think I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by like my to do list and keeping on top of routines and structure and things.

Natalie Englander: 00:16:52

And I guess it was really interesting that whilst all that stuff was happening at the same time, I'd been working on my private practice and kind of figuring out my ideal client and marketing and so I was starting to attract more of my ideal clients.

Natalie Englander: 00:17:06

So like millennial women who are maybe high achievers, high functioning anxiety, sort of stressed burnt out, overwhelmed, low self esteem.

Natalie Englander: 00:17:17

And quite a few of my clients had adhd.

Natalie Englander: 00:17:21

And so I thought, okay, I've learned about it before, I kind of, I know a little bit about it, but again like lots of people from more of that sort of stereotypical young boy type stuff, basically like my younger brother who has adhd, but I really then started to learn more about it in women and maybe I guess without realizing I've been starting to think about it a little bit.

Natalie Englander: 00:17:50

And it was actually then just one day where I sat down and I did like a deep dive, probably very adhd, but like hyper focus, music in song on repeat, reading, loving it, learning and just, yeah, two hours in I was suddenly like, oh my God, this is me.

Natalie Englander: 00:18:08

I'm learning about me.

Natalie Englander: 00:18:09

I've got adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:18:11

Wow.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:18:12

Yeah, that's pretty profound.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:18:14

First of all, how old are your twins now?

Natalie Englander: 00:18:17

There'll be three next year, beginning of next year.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:18:21

I mean that is just so intense, isn't it?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:18:24

And like how you can have been thrown into motherhood and, and you know, I'm sure people would have said of course you're overwhelmed, you've got twins, of course, you know, but the fact that you knew intrinsically, because very often, you know, you have people who are a little bit ignorant will say of course you're going to be scatter, you're a mum, you're not getting enough sleep or, you know, life gets, you know, busy and all of that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:18:46

If you're able to look at those traits that you were experiencing after, you know, having the babies and know that they kind of showed up in different capacities, you know, in different moments of your life.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:18:58

And then you know that we, as we know with women with adhd, hormones exacerbate, you know, turn up the acceleration on everything and you can be overwhelmed by life without adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:10

But we know that with ADHD the overwhelm just feels chronic, ongoing, it feels very difficult to manage.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:20

And I think with children, for myself I noticed my ADHD definitely get worse.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:26

Purely not.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:27

I think I just kind of winged a lot of parenting, a lot of motherhood and I did get a little bit fixated on routines and realized actually the routines for me were working like it was working for other people.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:38

But what I really noticed it was my overthinking, my catastrophization, my worry, my anxiety.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:45

I would wake up in the middle of the night and like almost be sleep, walking into my kids rooms, checking.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:52

I used to have these constantly, these sort of nightmares that, you know, they were in water and I couldn't get to them.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:19:57

And I think it was just so much in my head, there was just so much going on and so much worry that the.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:04

I don't think it's talked about enough actually.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:06

You know, these sort of specifics of the overwhelm and the anxiety when you are a mum and the ADHD sort of comes to a forefront because from externally I kind of had things covered ish, you know, and I was fortunate to get help.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:22

I had a cleaner who was like my godsend and I knew that if I didn't have that help I think possibly things would unravel very, very quickly.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:30

Yeah, I'm Interested to know how did your, your partner respond when you kind of said, I think it's adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:39

Like, yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:40

Do you mind me asking?

Natalie Englander: 00:20:40

Yeah, no, it's fine.

Natalie Englander: 00:20:42

Well, funny enough, they were actually either downstairs maybe, or perhaps they were at the house, but I just messaged them on WhatsApp randomly and just said, oh my God, I think I've got adhd.

Natalie Englander: 00:20:52

And he actually replied saying, yeah, I know, I think I've told you that before.

Natalie Englander: 00:20:57

And I was like, what?

Natalie Englander: 00:20:59

Sorry, I don't remember this.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:01

Which obviously I wouldn't remember.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:02

It's got a terrible memory.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:04

And yeah, I think it's the kind of thing that to pretty much everyone else in my life, I don't think anyone would think or ever put me as the person who they would describe as sort of being or having adhd.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:19

But I think it's the people who live with you, they're the ones who really see the things that you might struggle with, like struggling to switch off at night and go to bed.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:30

No one else is going to see that.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:32

Or struggling to keep up with a particular sort of habit or routine with kind of laugh.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:38

I mean, I still do this now anyway, but anytime I'd go to Tesco's to get a snack or something and my fiance would say, oh, can you get me this?

Natalie Englander: 00:21:46

9 times out of 10 I would come back and I would have forgotten his snack.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:49

And.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:50

And I guess you kind of laugh, but also those are the things that, going back to that word shame again, that.

Natalie Englander: 00:21:55

That can just make you feel really awful and you're thinking like, well, that's not nice.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:00

I've forgotten what they wanted.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:02

You know, I'm feeling really bad here.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:04

It's not that I don't care, it's just I genuinely would like, get distract forget.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:08

And I think that's why it's so helpful.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:10

Then once you know and you're diagnosed with adhd, you're just able to then be so much kinder to yourself and know that's no reflection on me as a person.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:20

It's purely just I've got distracted and I forgot.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:23

It doesn't mean I don't care or, you know, I'm mean for forgetting something.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:30

Yeah.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:30

But yeah, I think they definitely weren't surprised, funnily enough.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:36

But I think also actually may be helpful to mention is that what I think also helped me to sort of identify at that time is that I'd also really worked on my perfectionism.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:51

And so in the past, I think lots of things that perhaps were actually more of an ADHD symptom.

Natalie Englander: 00:22:59

Without having that sort of deeper knowledge of ADHD and particularly how ADHD presents in women, I would tend to just put it all down to perfectionism and think I'm procrastinating because I'm a perfectionist or I'm, you know, I'm all or nothing because I'm a perfectionist.

Natalie Englander: 00:23:13

And so actually it was working on my perfectionism that then allowed me to see more clearly that there was something else happening.

Natalie Englander: 00:23:22

And I guess, you know, I'm a therapist, so naturally I am going to be quite curious and sort of approach things in a certain way that you might not do if you're, if you're not a therapist.

Natalie Englander: 00:23:31

But I remember, say with procrastination, for example, I got really curious about why I was procrastinating because I knew in the past I would notice more of the, this needs to be perfect, I don't want to fail, blah, blah, more of the perfectionist stuff.

Natalie Englander: 00:23:47

Whereas that wasn't showing up anymore because I wasn't as fussed about that anymore because I'd worked for my perfectionism, but I was still procrastinating.

Natalie Englander: 00:23:55

And this time I couldn't really put my finger on what it was, but I knew there was something going on.

Natalie Englander: 00:24:02

So initially I actually started reading about, like self sabotage because I was thinking maybe that's, that's a thing and that's what I'm experiencing.

Natalie Englander: 00:24:09

And then obviously, yeah, started to read more about ADHD and thought that's what it is.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:14

Actually, I'm going to be totally honest here.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:21

Yesterday I had a really, really bad day.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:24

The bad day was just lots of things, work things, life things, feeling very overwhelmed.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:33

And it ended up with me opening a speeding ticket.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:37

When I got home after I just got a parking ticket while I was in the hairdressers.

Natalie Englander: 00:26:42

What a nightmare.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:43

So in one day it was like building, building, building.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:47

And I was already feeling quite fragile anyway for other reasons.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:51

And I just kind of got to last night and I just sat down and cried.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:56

And I said to my husband, I said, I think I feel like everything is just falling apart, like I'm not coping.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:02

And he has the insight now and I have the insight that we know there's adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:07

We understand that, like, yes, I can feel quite easily overwhelmed.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:12

Things can fall apart.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:13

I knew when I got my speeding ticket is because I was rushing to the train.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:17

I had to get on the train, a really important train.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:19

And I got my parking ticket yesterday because I was running late for my hairdresser.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:23

So instead of parking in the long stay, I winged it and part in the two hour stay.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:29

And you know, obviously being in the hairdresser, things take longer and I was 10 minutes late and I got the parking ticket.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:36

But I kind of understand all of this now.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:38

Instead of it being a direct personality flaw and I would have shamed myself and criticized myself, I just kind of give myself a bit more self compassion.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:48

Yes, very annoying.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:50

Got a parking ticket and a speeding ticket.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:52

I'm gonna have to deal with it.

Natalie Englander: 00:27:53

That's right.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:55

And I have to sort of like four or five years of awareness of adhd, I would be on top of these things.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:02

But it's still, and I have these conversations, hundreds of hours of conversations, and it still hits me like a sledgehammer sometimes.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:11

And we just have to, we just have to get on with that and I guess lean into it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:16

And that's what I wanted to kind of move on to.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:18

Of your way of dealing with perfectionism isn't actually pushing it away and like trying to get rid of it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:26

You, you lean into it and you're like, well actually, how can this help me?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:30

Like what?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:30

How can this serve me?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:28:31

And I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Natalie Englander: 00:28:33

Yeah, definitely.

Natalie Englander: 00:28:34

I think so often when we hear or read about perfectionism, we only think of the negative sides.

Natalie Englander: 00:28:40

And it absolutely can be really negative, like we were talking about at the beginning.

Natalie Englander: 00:28:44

It can have an impact on our mental health and it puts lots of pressure on us, etc.

Natalie Englander: 00:28:50

But I think that, and certainly my experience as a perfectionist, but also having worked with hundreds of perfectionists, is that when we try and approach it with this sort of mindset of perfectionism is all bad and I need to overcome it and I need to get rid of it.

Natalie Englander: 00:29:10

And even when we refer to ourselves as a recovering perfectionist, which I used to think of or kind of call myself, but I don't anymore, is that I think it can be really unhelpful because it's so hard to not be a perfectionist at all.

Natalie Englander: 00:29:25

And also I'm yet to meet any perfectionist who doesn't like some part of their perfectionism being a perfectionist.

Natalie Englander: 00:29:33

And so I kind of just thought, why are we all trying to force ourselves to overcome this thing and then feeling really rubbish when it's not working and was, you know, kind of failing to overcome it.

Natalie Englander: 00:29:44

Actually maybe it's going to feel a lot more helpful to just accept that perfectionism, technically it's not a mental health problem, it is a personality trait.

Natalie Englander: 00:29:54

And Therefore, if it's part of our personality, let's actually just try and embrace it and stop trying to sort of not be a perfectionist and instead focus on how can we learn to manage our perfectionism?

Natalie Englander: 00:30:09

So deal with the unhealthy, unhelpful parts of it, but then also try and harness the positive, helpful, healthy parts of it.

Natalie Englander: 00:30:19

Aiming more to try and learn how to thrive as a perfectionist, not stop being a perfectionist.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:27

Yeah, I love that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:29

So how does that look?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:30

Let's get practical.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:32

Let's kind of like maybe come up with an anonymous fictional kind of client that we can maybe workshop around.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:40

Because I think what's really helpful, we have these conversations and we're there, we're vulnerable, we're truthful.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:47

And I want to make sure that the audience is kind of thinking, okay, I can really relate to all of this.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:53

Thank you for all the honesty.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:55

But how do I move through this if maybe I can't afford therapy?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:59

And how do I embrace and use my perfectionism?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:02

Like you say, manage it and have it there as a part of our personality that doesn't feel like it's taking over or like we can kind of utilize it for good?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:12

What does that look like?

Natalie Englander: 00:31:13

Yeah, well, I guess I.

Natalie Englander: 00:31:15

I think it's a good place to start, is trying to just get to the root of your perfectionism a little bit, which, of course, I think is.

Natalie Englander: 00:31:23

Is easier done, you know, with a therapist in therapy.

Natalie Englander: 00:31:27

But it doesn't have to be, you know, you can just sit down and reflect on your own life or journal to get a sense of maybe where your perfectionism has come from, why it might have developed.

Natalie Englander: 00:31:37

So, you know, for lots of women with adhd, that's why it's developed as a way to cope with or compensate for their symptoms.

Natalie Englander: 00:31:43

But for other people, it might be that they had really critical parents that put lots of pressure on them to perform and always, you know, get 100% at school, etc.

Natalie Englander: 00:31:52

So just taking the time to reflect, maybe why it's developed, I think it's helpful because it can just start to build in that compassion for yourself to see.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:01

Okay, it kind of makes sense that I've developed perfectionism or that, you know, I'm a perfectionist.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:07

And also in that reflecting piece is you're going to spot and see where maybe it's also helped you or you feel like, yeah, that was maybe a part of why I did get all A's and A stars, because I worked extra hard because of my perfectionism.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:23

So, yeah, I Think starting off, figuring out the root of it and then I guess it's.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:29

It's getting a sense of when it shows up in an unhelpful way and what that looks like.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:35

So maybe it's procrastination, maybe it's people pleasing, overthinking, self criticism, all that fun stuff that women with ADHD in particular know all about.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:49

And kind of working on one thing at a time.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:53

Let's not put pressure on ourselves to try and do everything all at once because we wouldn't do that in therapy.

Natalie Englander: 00:32:59

It's just too overwhelming.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:02

We want things to be challenging but not overwhelming.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:04

So maybe thinking, okay, I'm going to pick one of the things I'm struggling with.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:08

Procrastination, for example, how can I work on that?

Natalie Englander: 00:33:12

How can I create some, some small wins?

Natalie Englander: 00:33:15

So I'm not going with that all or nothing approach.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:17

You know, I need to totally overcome my procrastination or I failed.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:22

It's.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:22

What kind of tweaks can I make?

Natalie Englander: 00:33:25

Experimenting with different ways of doing things.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:28

Because of course, everyone's different.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:31

So some people with procrastination, let's say, maybe they'd work better doing a piece of work in the morning because that's when they can focus best.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:40

But for other people, they're going to procrastinate less if they work in the evenings.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:44

Or maybe for some people, it helps them to do the hardest task first, get that out the way, then the sort of the fear's gone and they can relax a bit and do the other ones.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:55

But for other people it's going to be the other way.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:57

Let's do an easy one first.

Natalie Englander: 00:33:59

Tick that off.

Natalie Englander: 00:34:00

Feel good, bit of dopamine.

Natalie Englander: 00:34:02

Now I can move on to the harder one that I've been avoiding.

Natalie Englander: 00:34:05

So I think often sort of, yeah, testing, testing things out and then also, yeah, looking at where it shows up in a helpful way.

Natalie Englander: 00:34:15

What parts of your perfectionism do you like and how can you try and build on that in some way?

Natalie Englander: 00:34:23

Because I think so often we tend to focus on our negatives and we really need to try and shift that into celebrating our achievements, celebrating our wins, no matter how small.

Natalie Englander: 00:34:36

Because often we just discount all of the positives, particularly when you're a perfectionist as well.

Natalie Englander: 00:34:44

There's a real habit of just discounting anything positive and thinking everyone can do that, or I should have just been able to do that anyway, it's nothing great.

Natalie Englander: 00:34:54

And then you're kind of raising the bar even higher every single time.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:59

Yeah, yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:00

I mean, I guess it kind of blends in with imposter syndrome as well that, doesn't it?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:05

Which we know many of us have dealt with and suffer with.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:08

And it's a really tricky one because I think with imposter syndrome you just never feel like you're good enough, you know, and addressing that alongside the perfectionism as well of it being, I mean for me, I think maybe my perfectionism definitely showed up in, in imposter syndrome.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:28

And that's just always been like a bit of a mantra in my head of, you know, I've said it a few times, even this conversation, just winging it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:35

I'm just sort of like winging it and just kind of, you know, muscling through and just hopefully, you know, something kind of sticks.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:42

Where if I was my client I would say, well look what you've achieved, look what you've done.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:48

It's been through lots of hard work and persistence and growth and failure and picking yourself up again and pivoting and changing.

Natalie Englander: 00:35:56

Yeah, resilience.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:58

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:35:58

That's kind of like my self talk.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:00

Especially say yesterday when I literally was on the floor in my bedroom going to, saying to my husband like I can't do this anymore type thing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:10

And so it comes to me quicker now the voice of but look at what you've achieved, look how you've done them.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:16

You've done this on your own.

Natalie Englander: 00:36:18

Yeah.

Natalie Englander: 00:36:18

So I think this is where mindfulness can be really helpful because often it's really good to do thought challenging, which we do a lot of in cbt, challenging those negative unhelpful thoughts that happen.

Natalie Englander: 00:36:33

But sometimes no matter how much we do that, there might always be some thoughts that will linger on or maybe might always be there for however many months, years or forevermore.

Natalie Englander: 00:36:44

And I think having a mindfulness approach to those is more useful.

Natalie Englander: 00:36:48

So thinking of a personal example, if I ever get any kind of self critical thoughts, you know, you haven't done a good enough job with this thing.

Natalie Englander: 00:36:57

Rather than feeling like I need to go and challenge that and you know, say well, you did this well or etc.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:05

Instead the mindfulness approach for me is more of a, oh, here's the old classic, you haven't done a good enough job.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:12

Hi there, thanks for coming.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:14

Great, cool.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:15

Have a nice day.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:15

I'm just going to go back to focusing on whatever it was that I was focusing on.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:20

So I'm kind of just acknowledging the thoughts there.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:23

I've noticed it.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:24

I'm not trying to push it away, I'm allowing it to be there.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:27

But I'M just now not going to really engage much.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:31

And again, I think that can feel quite helpful rather than that sort of pressure that we can have as perfectionists to feel like, you know, we need to.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:40

Need to overcome something, we need to conquer it.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:42

I need to challenge my thought and get rid of this unhelpful one.

Natalie Englander: 00:37:46

Maybe that's not always going to be realistic.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:37:50

I love that it's a much more gentle approach, isn't it?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:37:54

Especially when we're already exhausted by our own thinking and our mind.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:37:58

And it's so important to remember that our thoughts actually aren't always true.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:05

Like I, it's genuinely.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:07

It's only up until relatively recently that I believed everything I thought.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:12

Like, I genuinely, if I thought it, it's real.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:15

And I've now been able to recognize that some of my thoughts are very helpful.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:19

The imagination, creativity, insights, ideas, all of that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:23

And sometimes I can be like, that was a thought that I can just let go of because that's, that's not serving me, or that's not, that's not for me, you know, right now, or just recognizing it and, and moving on.

Natalie Englander: 00:38:36

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:37

And we can see that with, with perfectionism, we can see that, like that negative inner voice, that criticism that can be sort of very pervasive and insistent.

Natalie Englander: 00:38:49

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:49

Doesn't have to be the leading kind of character anymore.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:38:54

Like we can choose for it to not.

Natalie Englander: 00:38:55

Yeah.

Natalie Englander: 00:38:56

That was actually.

Natalie Englander: 00:38:56

I remember a real moment when I was doing my mindfulness teacher training is that I felt like it was, I think, on the day of silence, you know, and you're supposedly going to have some fantastic epiphany.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:10

And I was just like, this is not happening for me.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:13

I was looking at everyone else and they all looked really cool and, and calm and relaxed.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:17

And I was like, they're just having these like, incredible insights.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:20

And I'm just sat here like 10,000 different thoughts, distracted, thinking about other things.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:25

And I was like, it's not happening for me.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:27

And then at some point, right at the end, I did have a moment because I think there were these perfectionist thoughts, self criticism of like, you've just wasted a whole day.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:37

You haven't had any great insights.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:39

I just had a moment where I was like, I don't actually have to sort of agree with that or act on that or do anything with that.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:46

I can just let it be there and kind of that again, almost bringing in a bit of humor of like, hi, thanks for coming.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:55

Here you are again, nice to see you.

Natalie Englander: 00:39:58

And actually then I, I kind of Realized that was quite a big shift in insight for me to have because as you say, it is, it is a more gentle approach, but I feel like it's a more useful approach and something that I often share with my clients that is always helpful is any times when you are having those self critical thoughts is to just ask yourself, what would I say to a friend in this moment?

Natalie Englander: 00:40:29

Because 9 times out of 10 our response is going to be far more compassionate if it's a friend or a loved one versus when it's ourselves.

Natalie Englander: 00:40:39

And I think when we ask that question, what would I say to a friend?

Natalie Englander: 00:40:42

It just helps us to shift a little bit into a different way of looking at things.

Natalie Englander: 00:40:48

Something that often is gentler and is more compassionate.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:40:53

Yeah, I think that's really, really helpful.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:40:55

I think these conversations are so important because when we can spell it out and how it shows up sort of in day to day life and how it can impact us in all areas of our life as well, that this perfectionism isn't just this sort of surface layer thing, it can be very deep rooted and it can be there from childhood and like you say, you know, you saw it in your mum and you saw it and how it was in the house and it's just making that recognition that, okay, now I understand what it is and I can see it and like you say, you can almost like have this conversation with it and sort of say, yes, thank you, you've served me, you helped me get through school, university, got me into the career, you've helped me stay organized, you've helped me feel kind of like I'm in control.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:41

But actually right now I feel like I, you know, you know, we're obviously talking to the perfectionism right now.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:47

I feel like I want things to be easier or more gentle and choosing, I'm going to choose other options.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:54

And that to me feels really empowering.

Natalie Englander: 00:41:56

Yeah, definitely.

Natalie Englander: 00:41:57

Almost kind of like, yeah, thanking the perfectionism but saying, you know, you can, you can sit down and relax for a bit now.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:03

I've got this 100%.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:06

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:07

So can I ask, I know you work online.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:08

I think it's amazing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:09

You've obviously got your twins, life is very busy.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:13

Do you find that now that you are curating a way of living that feels more effortless to you and more simple?

Natalie Englander: 00:42:22

Yeah, definitely.

Natalie Englander: 00:42:23

Well, I've left my NHS job where I worked in a, in a big team so I can just focus on my private practice, which I think that in itself is helpful because I guess you're sort of reducing the demand and that there's, there's one less different thing to have to manage, like one less inbox, you know, that in itself is fantastic.

Natalie Englander: 00:42:45

Reduces the overwhelm.

Natalie Englander: 00:42:46

And I think it's also great because it means every day I'm excited for what I'm doing and I'm feeling really motivated.

Natalie Englander: 00:42:55

And of course, course, we know for ADHD brains that helps a lot more and I can kind of create more variety in my day, which again, feels more exciting, novel, new, different things to do.

Natalie Englander: 00:43:10

Yeah.

Natalie Englander: 00:43:10

I think sometimes there can be the sense that as therapists, you know, we've, we've got everything figured out, we always have our shit together perfectly.

Natalie Englander: 00:43:19

But we are just human beings as well.

Natalie Englander: 00:43:23

And whilst we might have more kind of knowledge and insight into some things or we might know about more tools and techniques, it doesn't mean we're immune to struggling with things or, you know, we might not always keep on top of all of our healthy habits that we're trying to build.

Natalie Englander: 00:43:41

And I guess for me is just knowing that it's, it's a journey and a process.

Natalie Englander: 00:43:48

There isn't this sort of end point and the same, I guess, with perfectionism, it's not about striving to try and overcome it and get rid of it, it's just learning how to manage it in a helpful way.

Natalie Englander: 00:43:59

Some days are going to be better than others and that's.

Natalie Englander: 00:44:03

And that's fine.

Natalie Englander: 00:44:04

So I think, yeah, I'm able to have a lot more compassion for myself and just kind of roll with it more.

Natalie Englander: 00:44:13

Whereas before, especially pre ADHD diagnosis, but also when my perfectionism was much more in that unhealthy range versus now generally being more in that healthy range, there's kind of less of that.

Natalie Englander: 00:44:27

Like you've failed, you've messed up, you need to, you know, start all again with your routine or something.

Natalie Englander: 00:44:34

Now it's more just, you missed a few days.

Natalie Englander: 00:44:37

Fine, never mind.

Natalie Englander: 00:44:39

Carry on again today.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:41

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:42

How wonderful.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:43

Well, thank you.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:45

Thank you for sharing all your insights and, and your story and I guess people will want to know how they can work with you, especially because you work online so you can see anyone around the world.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:55

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:55

How can people find you?

Natalie Englander: 00:44:56

Yeah, well, I'm on Instagram as the perfectionism therapist, so people can come and find me there and they can head to my website from Instagram as well and get in touch there.

Natalie Englander: 00:45:12

People can either book straight into an initial appointment or they can pick an intro call if they just want to see, you know, would we be a good fit to work together, ask me any questions.

Natalie Englander: 00:45:21

And so yeah, I offer one to one online cognitive behavioral therapy that incorporates mindfulness based cognitive therapy and also compassion focused therapy, which for me I think I try not to use the word perfect and actually mean it, but for me it feels like the perfect combination for perfectionists and also particularly for women with ADHD who are also perfectionists.

Natalie Englander: 00:45:49

I've also got a newsletter, the Diary of a Perfectionist, where I try and share a bit more about my own experiences of being a perfectionist.

Natalie Englander: 00:45:58

So when it's maybe showed up in an unhealthy way and how I've made sense of that and then what I've done, the kind of positive changes or actions I've taken to try and get things back into a healthy, helpful path.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:13

Wow, that's amazing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:15

Well, you're doing so much.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:16

I hope you're giving yourself some time as well because having twins is not easy, especially toddlers as well.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:22

So I hope you get a bit of time just for you and yeah, just kind of nourishing you.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:28

But Nathan, I just want to thank you so much.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:30

Love this conversation and I think it's going to really resonate with so many people.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:34

So thank you.

Natalie Englander: 00:46:35

Thank you so much for having me.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:39

If you've enjoyed today's episode, I invite you to check out my brand new subscription podcast called the Toolkit.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:45

Now this is where I'm going to be opening up my entire library.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:46:50

My vault of information from over the years, my workshops, webinars and courses, my conversations with experts about hormones, nutrition, lifestyle and bringing brand new up to date content from global experts.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:47:04

This is going to be an amazing resource for you to support you and guide you even more on more niche topics and conversations so you can really thrive and learn to live your best life with adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:47:15

I'm so excited about this.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:47:17

This Please just check out it's the Toolkit on Apple Podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:47:21

You get a free trial.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:47:22

Really hope to see you there.