ADHD, Autism & Harnessing Our Unique Neurodiversity at Work with Rachel Morgan-Trimmer
In this week’s episode, Kate speaks with Rachel Morgan-Trimmer, a neurodiversity consultant, TEDx speaker, and author of How to Be Autistic: A Guide for the Newly Diagnosed. Together they explore the complex intersection of ADHD and autism, and what it means to truly support neurodivergent people at work and beyond.
Rachel shares her journey of late diagnosis, burnout, and self-discovery, and unpacks the lesser-known ways mental and physical health can be affected when ADHD and autism go unsupported. They dive deep into the power of language, the harm of assumptions, and how workplaces can move from just “awareness” to real, sustainable inclusion through low-cost, high-impact interventions.
What You’ll Learn:
✨ Why the overlap between ADHD and autism can feel confusing — especially for women
✨ How internalised stigma, shame, and burnout can show up at work
✨ What sustainable, inclusive systems for neurodiveristy look like in the workplace
✨ How to support neurodivergent employees and be a better manager
✨ The role of passion, purpose, and flexibility in helping neurodivergent employees thrive
✨ Why workplace inclusion must centre both health and performance
✨ Why neurodiversity training is more in demand than ever
✨ How changing the narrative from “not enough” to “full of potential” helps productivity and outcomes
✨ Rachel’s personal experience riding the wave of ADHD and autism — and how she empowers others to be their authentic selves
Timestamps:
🕒 01:11 – How ADHD and autism overlap
🕒 12:25 – The rise of neurodiversity awareness at work
🕒 14:30 – What inclusive workplaces can look like
🕒 24:40 – How neurodivergent traits show up in everyday life
🕒 28:40 – Rethinking productivity with ADHD
🕒 36:28 – Navigating neurodivergence as a woman
🕒 40:08 – Why support is key to thriving
This episode is for anyone who’s felt misunderstood at work, questioned how their brain “should” operate, or wants to help build a more inclusive workplace for their employees. When we reframe neurodivergence as a difference, not a deficit, everyone benefits.
Find out more about Rachel and her work via her website, askfirebird.com or on LinkedIn. Buy Rachel's book here.
Links and Resources:
⭐ Perfectionism, Pressure, Procrastination, Productivity, and all the ADHD Ps in between! Workshop available to buy now on-demand. Click here to purchase.
⭐ Book on the next ADHD Wellbeing Workshop all about 'Boosting Hormonal and Perimenopausal Wellbeing alongside ADHD' on April 22nd @1.30pm! Click here to book.
⭐ If you love the podcast but want more ADHD support, get a sneak peek of my brand new book, The ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit and pre-order it here!
⭐ Launching September! Tired of ADHD support that doesn’t get you? My new compassionate, community-first membership ditches the overwhelm by providing support aligned with YOU! Join the waitlist now for an exclusive founding member offer!
Find all of Kate's popular online workshops and free resources here
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Kate Moryoussef is a women's ADHD lifestyle and wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity and clarity.
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Speaker A:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Speaker A:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Speaker A:Here's today's episode.
Speaker A:I am here today with a very interesting guest.
Speaker A:I'm really looking forward to speaking to her.
Speaker A:Her name is Rachel Morgan Trimmer and Rachel is the owner of Firebird neurodiversity training company or consultancy.
Speaker A:She's also a TEDx speaker and an author.
Speaker A:Now she has a book out that's called how to be Autistic A Guide for the Newly Diagnosed.
Speaker A:And I'm very excited to speak to Rachel today because we're going to be talking about the intersection of ADHD and autism and also a lot of the different challenges and perhaps some of the positives that come out of that as well, alongside perhaps the lesser known conversations that you know around mental health and mental well being with regards to ADHD and autism in women.
Speaker A:So I just wanted to welcome you to the podcast, Rachel.
Speaker A:Thank you for being here.
Speaker B:Thank you very much for inviting me.
Speaker A:So, I mean, I just gave that little brief intro I was going to start maybe with kind of how, how did you get to where you are now?
Speaker A:Because I was on your website just before and it's really fantastic.
Speaker A:The fiber training company for neurodiversity.
Speaker A:I know they do a lot of corporate work and they've been into lots of big companies and I loved some of the topics of the talks that you're doing as well.
Speaker A:And I'm just very interested to know a little bit about your background and how you found your way into this space.
Speaker B:That's a great question because it wasn't like so many things with adhd, it wasn't a linear process, it was all twisty turny and winding around.
Speaker B:So I actually ran a different company.
Speaker B:I ran a travel company as an entrepreneur for, for many years and I really, really struggled because everything I read about running your own business and being successful, all of that was directed towards neurotypical people and there was no encouragement to do things your own way.
Speaker B:Even though you're an entrepreneur, that's literally what an entrepreneur does.
Speaker B:And I struggled a great deal with doing what I needed to do, keeping up with the admin, even doing the things I want to do, which is one of those things that is often not well understood about ADHD and autism, that we don't just put off the things we don't want to do, we push off the things that we do want to do.
Speaker B:So my mental health really, really suffered and after a while I thought, I don't want my experience to be wasted.
Speaker B:I don't want that to be something that, you know, happened to me when it doesn't have to happen to other people.
Speaker B:I, I wanted other people to be able to learn from my experience.
Speaker B:So I started learning about ADHD and autism and I wasn't even diagnosed by this point.
Speaker B:And then I decided to set up a company to, to help people like me.
Speaker B:And I quickly found that one to one work wasn't really one of my strengths.
Speaker B:I mean, I do some of it still.
Speaker B:I, I, I support people very much behind the scenes.
Speaker B:But with training corporates we could reach a lot more people and the effect is bigger, not just because of the people that we're training.
Speaker B:And it's not just corporates, we train charities and public sector organizations and so on.
Speaker B:We could reach a lot more people.
Speaker B:But also there's that ripple effect.
Speaker B:So it would mean more neurodivergent people getting into jobs, more neurodivergent people being supported at work.
Speaker B:And also, even if a company doesn't have my training, by looking at what other people are doing, what looking at their competitors are doing, they also might invest in neurodiversity training, even if it's not from me.
Speaker B:And we're still able to help those people who really need it.
Speaker B:So that's how I came to run this consultancy.
Speaker A:So how long ago was that?
Speaker A:So I'm interested to know kind of what you've seen in the space since you started it and to where you are right now.
Speaker B:I've been running the company for five years now, part time the whole time, because I've got fairly young children.
Speaker A:What you're seeing back then five years ago, I mean, it feels like, you know, probably in a blink you're blinking it and it's gone.
Speaker A:But actually in this space, five years is a long time, isn't it?
Speaker B:It really is.
Speaker B:I mean the term neurodiversity has only been around since the late 90s, which is not that long ago.
Speaker B:And we're really only seeing the awareness of ADHD and autism being quite as broad as it is in the last couple of years, I would say now the awareness has changed a lot.
Speaker B:The demand for neurodiversity training is still very much there.
Speaker B:And I think we're seeing a couple of interesting things happen at the moment.
Speaker B:First of all, we're seeing a backlash, which is to be expected.
Speaker B:There's always a backlash with things like this.
Speaker B:You will see it in any other marginalized group, even something like women having equal pay.
Speaker B:You always get backlash with a marginalized group or a minority group starting to be recognized and supported.
Speaker B:So that's to be expected, and I think that'll blow over.
Speaker B:But it's also an opportunity for us, because there are people who are saying, actually, that's not what this is about.
Speaker B:It's not taking from you.
Speaker B:It's another opportunity for us to explain what we're doing and why it's important.
Speaker B:And I think the other thing that's happening that's really interesting right now is that people are really keen to go beyond the basics, which is great, which is nice, because at the beginning, we were looking at a lot of box ticking.
Speaker B:You know, we've done women, we've done race, we've done lgbtq.
Speaker B:Oh, now it's neurodiversity, and we'll tick off that box.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we still see some of that.
Speaker B:And do you know what?
Speaker B:I actually don't mind that, because if that's where you're starting, that's where you start.
Speaker B:That's brilliant.
Speaker B:That's 10 times better than doing nothing.
Speaker B:So that's fine by me.
Speaker B:But I think it's really exciting that people are going beyond that now.
Speaker B:And the other thing that people are going beyond is you've probably seen this yourself, that your ADHD is a problem, and it's a challenge, and you've got to manage it, and we've got to manage it and all of this, and I don't disagree with that.
Speaker B:But we're also seeing the other part of the picture, which is that, oh, they've got adhd.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker B:How can we support them?
Speaker B:How can we empower them?
Speaker B:How can we enable them to thrive?
Speaker B:And some of the companies I've worked with are starting to do that now, and I think that's a really exciting opportunity for.
Speaker B:Not just for me and my training, because that's, you know, that's where I come from, and I love to hear that, but also for those individuals who are, you know, for some of us, it's the first time in our lives that someone's come up and gone, hey, you've got this, you've got adhd, that's brilliant.
Speaker B:I want to help you harness that instead of just acting like it's a massive problem all the time.
Speaker B:So we're living in exciting times.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love your, your mindset and your positivity because you're so right that, you know, from the, from school age all we will have heard is, you know, try harder, do better, stop doing this, try doing more of that.
Speaker A:You like, you just have, we just have this sort of inner narrative of never being enough, always needing to do more.
Speaker A:You know, this is why we see so much perfectionism and people pleasing and burnout in the neurodivergent community because we've just always had to keep doing more to try and placate people.
Speaker A:And so now what is so nice to hear from you is that there's companies out there that are seeing the potential and kind of saying, okay, teach us what we need to do to harness to help you thrive.
Speaker A:Like, help us know how we can get the best out of you and how we can look after you.
Speaker A:And that is a very, very new narrative.
Speaker A:And I think it's probably, you know, not across the board yet in any way.
Speaker A:Are you surprised by some of the companies that you've worked with that are very open and maybe some of the companies that aren't as open as you think they should be?
Speaker B:Yes, it's really interesting actually.
Speaker B:We occasionally get people who are quite old fashioned and I would say that in a, in a sort of neutral way.
Speaker B:I'm trying to think of the right way to put it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think, I think old fashioned is right, but they're trying to modernize.
Speaker B:I actually love working for these companies because a lot of them, they don't really know anything about neurodiversity.
Speaker B:They might have heard of one or two of the conditions, they might have a relative with it, but they don't really understand.
Speaker B:And they're absolutely brilliant audiences because they're so open minded and they're so keen to learn, they're so curious about it.
Speaker B:So, you know, I talk about inclusion and prejudice on things all the time, but I very often have to set aside my own prejudices.
Speaker B:I come to places like that because I turn up and I think, you know, I have a picture in my head of what people are going to be like and they very often surprise me.
Speaker B:And it's sometimes the people you wouldn't expect who are asking the interesting questions, who are the most keen to make changes?
Speaker B:And that, that's another really exciting part of my job actually.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker B:Yeah, People like, they call it sail, male and pale.
Speaker B:So there's an older white man in quite a traditional professional job where you're expected to wear a suit and tie and things like that.
Speaker B:And some of those people, they just blow me away with how educated they are sometimes, how committed they are, how keen they are to learn, how much they listen as well, which is really important.
Speaker B:Yeah, I really enjoy that because it's.
Speaker A:Interesting because when you're sort of describing that demographic, maybe they're not the ones that are on tick tock and social media and learning all the new kind of language and lingo and I don't want to say the word but, you know, who aren't like that woke.
Speaker A:So they haven't even got any preconceived ideas.
Speaker A:Maybe they've just seen it in their family or maybe they have written related to it themselves.
Speaker A:Because, you know, I'm thinking about some businesses who, you know, maybe are generational, they're family businesses and, you know, the first generation that set it up were just entrepreneurs.
Speaker A:They might have left school at 15 or 16 with no qualifications.
Speaker A:They may relate to being dyslexic and ADHD or they may relate to, you know, autistic traits, but they've just never had the language for it.
Speaker A:But for some reason they've just done really well in business and really well in entrepreneurship and they.
Speaker A:I've just done what they've done because that's how they do things where.
Speaker A:And they don't have any of this, this preconception.
Speaker A:Whereas now it's kind of like, well, if you've got adhd, you should be an entrepreneur or you have to work for yourself or you've got autism.
Speaker A:You need to be very like good with detail and maybe work very well on your own.
Speaker A:And I think we need to maybe just understand the landscape with, with like this fresh perspective because there's a lot of narrative and some things are helpful and some things aren't helpful.
Speaker A:I guess this is what happens when like you say, like all this is, you know, coming to the forefront.
Speaker A:People are learning and it doesn't help that the media like to taint especially ADHD with a, with a negative brush.
Speaker A:Yesterday was the first article.
Speaker A:It was in the Times by Alice Thompson and there was an article she'd sort of done like a byline about neurodiversity being something that we should be nurturing and welcoming into business because, you know, they.
Speaker A:They're the ones that are going to help innovate.
Speaker A:And it was very positive.
Speaker A:But, you know, for one of Those, there's been 10 others about medication, about over.
Speaker A:Over diagnosing, about access to work, about everyone hopping on this sort of bandwagon.
Speaker A:So we're still working on the back foot a little bit.
Speaker A:And I'm interested to know a little bit about maybe the people that you speak to, like the different ages who are the ones that are just kind of like we.
Speaker A:This is just has to be part of like daily life now in a big business, we just have.
Speaker A:Have to have more neurodiversity understanding, interested to know what.
Speaker A:Who that typically is at the moment for you.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is interesting, you know, what you're saying about ages and who is responding positively to neurodiversity and so on.
Speaker B:One of the loveliest things about my job is that in almost every training session or speaking engagement I do, somebody recognizes themselves as having ADHD or dyslexia or autism.
Speaker B:And they've never had that before.
Speaker B:I've had people crying and disclosing for the first time during sessions, which to me is.
Speaker B:I mean, obviously I don't set out to make people cry.
Speaker B:But what is lovely is that relief that you can see.
Speaker B:They're finally able to understand themselves.
Speaker B:They're finally able to tell people.
Speaker B:We've had people disclosing sessions to their colleagues for the first time, and it's just fantastic to see that.
Speaker B:And I think that what that shows is that neurodiversity doesn't just affect young people.
Speaker B:With TikTok, it is across lots of ages, because most of the people who are recognizing themselves or disclosing are older, because young people on the whole tend to be much more open about these things, much more aware of these conditions in themselves and in other people.
Speaker B:So I'm talking like 40s, 50s and older.
Speaker B:Seeing them disclosed is great.
Speaker B:And I think what that means is for the company, there are many more neurodivergent people there than they perhaps first appreciated.
Speaker B:So it's something that they have to do because otherwise you're not supporting.
Speaker B:You know, in some places it might be a tenth of your workforce, in others a fifth.
Speaker B:In some places, half.
Speaker B:You know, there are places depending on the work and so on.
Speaker B:There's a lot of neurodiversity and neurodivergent people.
Speaker B:And, you know, you can either choose to support them and empower them, or you can just wave goodbye.
Speaker B:To some really, really talented people and it's not necessary because they're going to leave.
Speaker B:But there's other factors at play as well.
Speaker B:There's things like mental health, you talk people, physical health.
Speaker B:We know that physical health is an impact in unsupported neurodiversity, unsupported mental health.
Speaker B:So we need to be thinking about the whole picture where we're talking about the whole person or we're talking about the whole company, the whole team, whatever it is.
Speaker B:We need to be looking at everyone too, be able to support them and support the business as well.
Speaker B:Because successful businesses are inclusive.
Speaker B:We've got stacks and stacks of evidence to show that it's trying to get that across, that it's not just some woke thing that of the moment it's supporting people as a business decision and it's for a sustainable business.
Speaker B:And it's something that it's not just now something we need to keep on doing.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:It's an investment because you know, like you say you in different types of industry.
Speaker A:I'm thinking a little bit about health care and the amount of doctors who are burnt out.
Speaker A:I've had quite a few doctors who have been clients of mine speak to different people and you know, you hear this crazy kind of query, well how can you be a doctor with adhd?
Speaker A:Like how would you have concentrated or how can you be a lawyer with adhd?
Speaker A:But if we're seeing specific industries with a high level of burnout, we, we can start asking that question like I wonder if there's neurodivergence there and you know, starting to connect the dots with, you know, different mental health conditions.
Speaker A:Because the burnout and the mental health issues and people leaving industries and leaving jobs is not anything new.
Speaker A:It may be on the rise for sure, but what has contributed to it has been overwhelm, it's been overworking, it's been trying to do as much as they can or over committing or trying to mask and over override their brains when they've not even understood why they struggle with certain things.
Speaker A:And I know I've got a doctor that I speak to, she really, really struggles because she's got adhd.
Speaker A:She's an amazing doctor, incredible people skills, kind, nurturing, empathetic, intuitive.
Speaker A:But what she really struggles with is keeping on top of all the paperwork and that's where she struggles.
Speaker A:So we've had this kind of conversation of like where can we bring in more support, more help, who can she speak to?
Speaker A:And disclosing her neurodivergence because she's.
Speaker A:She was very worried that there was going to be huge level of shit.
Speaker A:Well, she.
Speaker A:There was shame there, you know, historic shame.
Speaker A:But she was worried that there was going to be judgment and, you know, if she's got adhd, what kind of doctor is she going to be?
Speaker A:Because she's going to miss things.
Speaker A:Actually, no, she's never missed anything.
Speaker A:She's actually probably overworked, ensures that she's never missed anything.
Speaker A:But what she has felt shame about is not being able to keep on top of all her notes.
Speaker A:And that has made her feel like a bad doctor.
Speaker A:And that shouldn't make someone feel like a bad anything.
Speaker A:She just needs help.
Speaker A:So if other industries are being supported and helped, you know, by your consultancy, it's like, how incredible we can have all these people staying in their jobs, doing incredible work, helping more people, you know, creating profitable, sustainable businesses, all with just some gentle changes and tweaks.
Speaker A:And that's what kind of really bothers me when people shut down the idea of understanding it in the corporate setting.
Speaker A:Because it's not a huge expense, is it?
Speaker A:You're not.
Speaker A:I can only imagine when you're having these conversations, it's about human compassion, understanding, curiosity, maybe just allowing a little bit more kind of autonomy with the way they work.
Speaker A:It's not saying to people you need to spend thousands of pounds on all sorts of new tools and practices and offices and software and everything.
Speaker A:But maybe some of that might be handy.
Speaker A:What would you say are the key things that you discuss about changing in the corporate setting to help accommodate more neurodiverse employees?
Speaker B:Well, firstly, to your point about cost, you are right, because people track this.
Speaker B:You know, various organizations track the cost of neurodiverse inclusion.
Speaker B:The majority of the accommodations don't cost anything at all.
Speaker B:And the remainder are.
Speaker B:They tend to be fairly low cost.
Speaker B:I think some American person worked out that it was $20 per employee.
Speaker B:You're not talking big sums of money at all.
Speaker B:And it's also, I think the other thing people fear about the cost is that it's a slippery slope.
Speaker B:You know, you give one person a thing, everyone's going to want it.
Speaker B:That doesn't happen if you give a dyslexic some software to help them read and write.
Speaker B:If you can read and write, you're just not going to use it.
Speaker B:Are you don't want it, you don't need it.
Speaker B:And that's the same for all their neurodivergent conditions.
Speaker B:So some of the things that my clients have Found helpful.
Speaker B:One of the key things actually that managers tell me all the time is that instead of imposing a tool or a process or a strategy on a person with ADHD or another neurodiverse condition, working with them really helps you sit down, work out what's going to work together.
Speaker B:One example which is quite interesting is, is how often a manager checks in.
Speaker B:Because people with ADHD know that sometimes having a human helicopter, you know, someone who sort of hovers behind you while you're working, can actually be helpful to keep you on task.
Speaker B:It helps keep you focused.
Speaker B:Those check ins help you understand time priorities, managing your workload and so on.
Speaker B:However, some people find that annoying.
Speaker B:Some people will be saying, I couldn't have that, I need to be left alone to get on with it.
Speaker B:How do you know where somebody falls?
Speaker B:And also that can change.
Speaker B:I might want to be left alone on a project for a month and then when it comes to the time to get it over the line, I might need to check in every day, it might even be every hour.
Speaker B:It just varies.
Speaker B:And if the manager doesn't want to do that or can't do that, you can automate things like that.
Speaker B:We've got so much technology to help on things like that now.
Speaker B:There's apps on the phone, there's timers, there's, you know, people in the workplace, they know what tools they already use.
Speaker B:How can those be adapted for neurodivergent people?
Speaker B:How can they be used to help somebody with adhd?
Speaker B:Another one that, this is nice because they use it for all neurodivergent conditions, but also for the neurotypicals.
Speaker B:It's a broad one that works really well.
Speaker B:And that's a visual stuff, visual charts, visual reminders on a board grid for things like that.
Speaker B:I mean, people have been using these for years and years anyway, but having that color coding is another one.
Speaker B:Dyslexics love a bit of color coding, but then so does everyone else because if you're a color or a task is a color, you can instantly see it without having to read anything.
Speaker B:It's a, it's a much quicker processing, especially if you struggle with reading.
Speaker B:So those are two of those.
Speaker B:And I mean, you know, how much, how much is a post it, how much is it going to cost to say to somebody, oh, have you checked in yet?
Speaker B:Or set a reminder on your calendar or whatever, those things don't cost much at all or in many cases anything at all.
Speaker B:And I think it's the culture of having that, being willing to do that saying, what do you need and what's going to support you can help.
Speaker B:And there was someone who was talking about some senior manager who said it helps him become a better manager because he's got to know the individual.
Speaker B:You have these things that are available, it might be flexible working, hybrid working the visual reminders.
Speaker B:Microtasking is another one that can help.
Speaker B:You know, breaking down paths and helping someone to do that, helping with prioritizing with this systemic inclusion where you have the tools for everybody, you have that there because it reduces cost and cognitive load and then you tailor them to the individual.
Speaker B:One thing I like to be mindful of when talking about this, we talk about the cost in terms of money.
Speaker B:We also need to consider the cost to the managers and colleagues on both their time and their cognitive load.
Speaker B:Because my entire job is neurodiversity.
Speaker B:I can think about this stuff all day long.
Speaker B:It's not for most people.
Speaker B:This is not their day job, they have an actual job.
Speaker B:Which is why systems and processes and tools that work for everyone and can be kind of tweaked for the individual is so important.
Speaker B:But I think we as consultants really need to be mindful of that.
Speaker B:Because it's got to be workable to be sustainable.
Speaker B:It's got to be workable.
Speaker B:And if you put too much load on someone, and we with adhd, we know this, if something's not fun, if it's not easy, if it's not doable, if it's not tangible, if it's not something we enjoy, we're not going to keep doing it.
Speaker B:And I think that applies to everybody more strongly for us perhaps, but the beauty of ants and you know, you don't have to, you don't have to impose a lot of cost or cognitive load or time on people once you understand neurodiversity.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think what maybe is a great point is that if there's an understanding and the manager knows who's got adhd, who's got dyslexia, who's got autism, it doesn't have to be like a whole big thing.
Speaker A:It's just for somebody who is neurodivergent to know that their manager gets it, understands it, is compassionate, is aware of it, that's a massive load in itself, you know, removed.
Speaker A:We don't have to mask, we don't have to hide.
Speaker A:We can make more self empowered choices as the neurodivergent individual at work.
Speaker A:And I'm interested to know a little bit about the fact that I know that you've got ADHD and autism.
Speaker A:And that probably is very helpful when you're training people, when you're speaking to people who have got both.
Speaker A:How does it impact you as a person who's obviously running a business herself?
Speaker A:And you are, you've got a family and you have written a book and you have lots of interests and passions.
Speaker A:I'd love to hear a little bit about that pendulum swing of the ADHD and the autism together and what works for you and what you find more challenging.
Speaker B:That's a really interesting question.
Speaker B:Because it's not something that I analyze a lot.
Speaker B:I tend to just wing it.
Speaker B:One thing I've learned to do that I found really helpful is to ride the wave.
Speaker B:And people with ADHD know what I mean.
Speaker B:Because today's wave might be learning to knit, it might be working on a particular work project, it might be writing a book, it might be watching a series on Netflix, it might be exercise.
Speaker B:We all have these ways you'll get stuck into something.
Speaker B:Might be tidying the house.
Speaker B:You know, if you start tidying house, you have to finish because otherwise the wave of tidying the house will end and then you won't be able to do it.
Speaker B:So if people aren't quite clear what I mean by that, it's that when we get interested in something, we can hyper focus and we get really excited about doing that, but it doesn't last.
Speaker B:We don't always plan according to that.
Speaker B:We go, yeah, I'm gonna, you know, it's in January, January 1st.
Speaker B:This is my New Year's resolution.
Speaker B:I'm gonna lose this amount of weight, I'm gonna eat loads of vegetables.
Speaker B:I'm going to go to the gym every day, for example, I'm going to go cycling every day.
Speaker B:And then you, you know, the end of January comes, your bike is still in the shed, you've eaten more KFC buckets than cabbages.
Speaker B:And that's just how it goes.
Speaker B:And because we don't see other people doing that, we, we tend to get full of shame and blame ourselves.
Speaker B:But I think that learning to ride that wave and understanding that, that that's how you work is a good thing because you get 10 times much as much done as most other people when you're focused on these, these things.
Speaker B:And then when it goes, you can do something else.
Speaker B:And then when that goes, you can return to whatever you were riding the wave of before.
Speaker B:So that's often how, how I balance it that, you know, I'll, I'll have these different focuses at different Times and accepting that has really helped me to.
Speaker B:To get things and because sometimes, you know, I'll have plans for something and then I'll shelve them.
Speaker B:They're not.
Speaker B:They don't always go away, but I'll shelve them and not giving myself grief for not completing something.
Speaker B:And I have lots of ideas that I don't complete.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:And I think we need to tell ourselves that it's okay.
Speaker B:I use a lot of organization techniques and tools.
Speaker B:One of the things that I decided when I turned 50 recently was that I was going to become more responsible for myself and for other people.
Speaker B:And part of that was facing up to things that I didn't really want to do that I've been putting off for years.
Speaker B:People with ADHD will know that the shame and the guilt and the anxiety when you've been putting stuff off for years, I thought, you know what?
Speaker B:I'm just going to do it and be done with it.
Speaker B:And that has helped.
Speaker B:It started a snowball effect because I was doing a thing called you need where you eat the frog, where you do something that you really don't want to do.
Speaker B:It opens the gate to doing easier things later on.
Speaker B:For example, I've become much more responsible with various admin tasks in my business and in my personal life and more organized with that, which is a challenge to me because it's a bit boring, to be honest, but it's one of those things that's given me a lot more freedom, not just from the anxiety, but in time, because I'm not always hunting around for things.
Speaker B:I've got more time to, you know, cut flower shapes out of carrots for my kids, that I enjoy doing that sort of thing.
Speaker B:I find it fun.
Speaker B:I won't deny that it's a challenge to juggle all these different things, but I think having adhd, I used to think of it as a problem when it came to having a busy life like I do, but I now see it as an advantage because it means I can switch focus from different things at different times.
Speaker B:And not only do I achieve a lot, but I also enjoy it.
Speaker B:And, you know, being able to enjoy your work is brilliant, especially when I think that enjoyment shows through when I'm training.
Speaker B:I absolutely love my job.
Speaker B:I adore my training participants.
Speaker B:They're such brilliant people.
Speaker B:They're so interesting and curious and clever and have such great ideas.
Speaker B:But, you know, for my family as well, being able to enjoy time with my family without stressing about something that I'm Supposed to be doing.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's challenging.
Speaker B:But also, I would rather do it this way with having ADHD than any other way, I think.
Speaker A:I mean, I can relate to a lot of that.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:It can be really hard work having adhd, but I love what it brings to my life, and I love being passionate and interested and enthusiastic and curious and always having another idea.
Speaker A:And what you said then about not having to do all the ideas, that's only a recent thing for me because I thought every time I have an idea, I have to execute it and I have to see it through.
Speaker A:It would be something that I would cause me quite a lot of shame because I'd be like, well, how am I going to do that?
Speaker A:Because I've got this, this and that to do, and I've just got so much to do.
Speaker A:And then I'd get into this sort of spiral of overwhelm, thinking that, yes, it is a brilliant idea and I need to deliver it because it's going to help a lot of people.
Speaker A:But actually, is now the right time to me to deliver that?
Speaker A:Probably not.
Speaker A:I need to kind of.
Speaker A:And it's not easy when you're impatient and you want it.
Speaker A:You want to see it happen, you want to see it manifest.
Speaker A:So I have to teach myself, and that goes against my adhd.
Speaker A:I've got so many visions in my head about what can be done.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:It's just time.
Speaker A:So we have to kind of learn to recognize that there are times where we have to pull back.
Speaker A:And I think that analogy of the wave.
Speaker A:I was kind of thinking a little bit about.
Speaker A:My daughter's 17 and she's learning how to drive.
Speaker A:So I'm doing the dreaded sitting in the passenger seats and taking her out on drives and, you know, helping with the manual gear stick and everything.
Speaker A:And it kind of feels a little bit like.
Speaker A:Like that.
Speaker A:Like there's days where you're in first gear and you're just about to stall, and you can feel that engine revving.
Speaker A:And there's other times where you just want to be in neutral and you just want to kind of, like, coast glide, and you don't want to have to do anything and you don't have to think and like you say, just sit and watch Netflix.
Speaker A:And then there's other times where you can just get, like, full steam ahead and it feels so easy and effortless and you just get so much done, you don't even know how you've managed to get.
Speaker A:But you just got into that Zone.
Speaker A:But it's really hard to not have that consistency.
Speaker A:And I think when going back to maybe, you know, your neurodiversity training, to have to explain to a neurotypical person that that one day of ridiculous amount of productivity might just only happen once every two weeks for that employee.
Speaker A:Like, whatever they did, they got that project over the line.
Speaker A:They came up with a whole new campaign, a whole new, you know, idea that might not be something that they can do every single day and, you know, to manage and help, you know, keep their, you know, their job sustainable or, you know, help them, you know, prevent burnout.
Speaker A:It is allowing neurodivergent individuals to fly when they need to fly, and then when it's time to rest, retreat and decompress and re energize to also allow them that bit of space.
Speaker A:Because if we're passionate and we're good at our job, we're always going to deliver.
Speaker A:It just like, might not be this consistent daily level of what we consider is sort of neurotypical delivery.
Speaker A:And I just wondered, I guess, do you have that as well in the way you work?
Speaker A:But are you hearing that with employees at your training as well?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, we do.
Speaker B:I mean, it is the case that you mentioned, burnout, which I thought was interesting, because people with ADHD are quite often rubbish at recognizing when they're doing too much.
Speaker B:Because we like to do too much.
Speaker B:We love it when we're in the zone.
Speaker B:We like to be productive.
Speaker B:It gives us that sense of purpose apart from anything else.
Speaker B:It's not, you know, when I talk about productivity, I'm not just talking about the capitalist machine.
Speaker B:I'm talking about the things that.
Speaker B:That make you feel.
Speaker B:Feel productive and rewarded and valuable and gives you that.
Speaker B:That purpose that we.
Speaker B:We all need.
Speaker A:Fulfilled.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly, fulfilled.
Speaker B:It is a thing where we are quite often striving for that.
Speaker B:And some of us, particularly women, particularly those of us who are older, who have grown up with undiagnosed adhd, who may have experienced a lot of shame.
Speaker B:A lot of it's, you know, trying to prove something to ourselves or other people.
Speaker B:You know, we have to be productive all the time, otherwise we're a terrible person kind of thing.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of us are really bad at recognizing when we're doing too much because we can do it for a while.
Speaker B:You know, you said one day every two weeks, which, which might be that for some person, that person could probably do it every day for a week, but at what cost?
Speaker B:What's going to happen?
Speaker B:After that, and they might not notice.
Speaker B:They might do it for another week.
Speaker B:And then they start to get stomachaches, they get migraines, they suddenly can't get out of bed in the morning, or it's really difficult.
Speaker B:So when we train people, we try and encourage them to recognize things in neurodivergent colleagues, particularly those with adhd, because this is very much an ADHD thing where somebody might be burning out or they might be, you know, their mental health may be getting poorer.
Speaker B:And how do we recognize that?
Speaker B:How do we look at that?
Speaker B:Because someone doesn't come into the office and go, I think I'm approaching burnout.
Speaker B:My mental health is really important.
Speaker B:They don't, do they?
Speaker B:And, you know, some of the signs are not what you would expect.
Speaker B:Sometimes people look better rather than worse because they wake up so tired.
Speaker B:They trim on the makeup or, for example, in order to look better.
Speaker B:I mean, I wear quite a lot myself on many days, but not every day.
Speaker B:It might be, you know, no makeup when they've been used to wearing it.
Speaker B:But what you're looking for is a change, a change in appearance, a change in behavior, a change in their work output.
Speaker B:And for some reason, I don't know why this is.
Speaker B:Neurotypical managers tend to be really good at this.
Speaker B:They can spot when something's off.
Speaker B:They might not know what it is, but they know something is off, and that's the opportunity for a conversation with that person.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not sure, but I sense there's not something quite right with you lately.
Speaker B:Are you feeling okay?
Speaker B:Is there anything, you know, I don't deprive, but is there anything I can help you with?
Speaker B:And then, you know, encourage.
Speaker B:If they do open up, they may or may not, there's an opportunity for you to direct them to some help, wherever it might be.
Speaker B:And I find that managers tend to be quite good at.
Speaker B:Once they understand how ADHD people work, which they don't always.
Speaker B:They think we're on the go all the time.
Speaker B:Often, once they have that explained to them, they're really good at accommodating the peaks and troughs of an ADHD employee.
Speaker B:They understand that they're very up and down in terms of their productivity, but that the outcome at the end is often greater than their peers.
Speaker B:So while they might, you know, somebody might be lying on the floor for a bit, but that doesn't mean they're not working.
Speaker B:They're just taking a break, and then they'll get back to it.
Speaker B:But, you know, whatever project it is however you measure your outcomes, you will often find that even with the breaks, even with those, that downtime that an ADHD preference has, the outcome at the end is great.
Speaker B:And I've seen this.
Speaker B:It was a company that didn't understand this.
Speaker B:They were measuring people.
Speaker B:I think it was.
Speaker B:I can't remember if it was week by week or month by month and an ADHD employee wasn't.
Speaker B:They weren't doing very well on some months, but if you looked at it over six months, their results were better than anyone else on the team.
Speaker B:But the company couldn't or wouldn't.
Speaker B:I think probably the second one, they didn't understand adhd, they didn't care about it, they wouldn't look at it over six months.
Speaker B:And so it got into a lot of difficulties because they weren't able to recognize that looking over the long term is a much better metric than looking at how someone with ADHD is over a week, over a month, or even in the moment.
Speaker B:Because, as you know, we vary so much.
Speaker A:It's so interesting, and I'm really delighted to be able to bring more awareness to this kind of conversation because people that listen to this podcast are the people who perhaps desperate for this type of awareness where they work, but also they can bring this in and maybe, you know, find it hard to do it personally, but to bring in consultancy to have this sort of overall understanding of neurodivergence in the business.
Speaker A:But just want to touch on your book, because before we finish, because you've also written a book, so I can, you know, very ADHD in this respect that you've got so much going on, and there's a book, and the book is called how to Be Autistic A Guide to the Newly Diagnosed.
Speaker A:So I'm really interested to know why you focused on just autism for this book and what made you want to write a book in the first place.
Speaker B:I did mention earlier that I get quite a lot of people contacting me, messaging me and so on about some issues that they're having, and I try to reply to them as much as I can or direct them to some other sources of information if they need it.
Speaker B:So I knew that there was this need for a guide to how to be autistic for people who are diagnosed.
Speaker B:In fact, it started with a friend of mine in my kitchen who had just been diagnosed, and he said, I've been diagnosed autistic.
Speaker B:And I said, well, there's a surprise.
Speaker B:I'm not very tactful.
Speaker B:And it was fairly obvious to me he didn't mind and he said what do I do now?
Speaker B:And I thought I don't know.
Speaker B:And I get that question or so many similar questions from other people.
Speaker B:So I decided to write the book to give them an answer.
Speaker B:The book, you can buy it but you can also download the whole thing free because so many autistic people are unemployed, they don't have a lot of money and I wanted this to be a resource to help people and for it to be free to access.
Speaker B:So you can download it free from howtobeautistic.com why autism instead of ADHD?
Speaker B:I think because I felt at the time that was where I was seeing the greater need.
Speaker B:I'm not saying that it is a greater need than adhd, but at the time it was something that I was focusing on and I am going to do the ADHD version as well.
Speaker B:I've started it already.
Speaker B:How to have adhd.
Speaker B:I think those resources are important because there's often no follow up support.
Speaker B:I think one of the other reasons I did it is because when you're diagnosed with ADHD sometimes you get some follow up support and often with an autism diagnosis you don't get that.
Speaker B:So I wanted to provide something for those people who had literally nothing else.
Speaker B:They were just sort of dropped.
Speaker B:Somebody called it a post diagnostic cliff.
Speaker B:You just sort of walk off a.
Speaker B:You just don't know what you're doing, you're sort of free falling.
Speaker B:And I think it's really important too that people should get that support.
Speaker B:So I wanted to do something that I could do which is write a book in quite a light hearted way in order to support those people.
Speaker B:Because obviously my book's not the only one on autism.
Speaker B:There's some great, great resources for autistic people out there.
Speaker B:But I wanted to something that was quite easy to read and digest.
Speaker B:It's illustrated, it's got lovely pictures and it's got little tables in because an autistic person does love a table.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:The reading age is fairly, fairly.
Speaker B:It's like a reading age of 12.
Speaker B:It's not simplistic, it's just easy to read.
Speaker B:I've been told that teenagers have read it, newly diagnosed teenagers, which is brilliant because you're talking about the next generation.
Speaker B:We do want to make it easier for them.
Speaker B:Cannot wait to get my ADHD book out but I'm waiting for the wave of bookness which will come soon.
Speaker B:If I try and do it before then, it's not going to happen.
Speaker B:But it's on its way I can feel it because I'm really excited about that.
Speaker B:I'm really excited about being able to support people with adhd.
Speaker B:And one of the key things that I want to give to people is the opportunity to let go of that shame that they've been carrying.
Speaker B:Because that's another thing that I hear an awful lot, particularly in women.
Speaker B:They carry around all this shame about having ADHD the way they are.
Speaker B:The people they've let down, the relationships they've.
Speaker B:Well, they think they've messed up, but, you know, relationships that haven't worked, whether friendships or work relationships or romantic relationships, I just really want that opportunity to empower people to let go of that shame and start living their more authentic life.
Speaker B:That's an absolutely massive privilege as well.
Speaker B:You know, if someone reads my book and gets something out of it, that's a huge privilege to me, that people are almost letting me into their inner selves when they have a response to that.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm really lucky to be in that position where I can do that because I've got adhd, I write really fast.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:And you have to wait for that wave.
Speaker A:And when you know that wave's coming, you need to kind of clear the deck, shut the door, headphones on, and.
Speaker A:And get writing.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:It's coming, though.
Speaker B:It's coming.
Speaker A:Well, I'm very excited to read that.
Speaker A:And I'll make sure that all the links that we've been talking about on today's conversation will be on the show notes, because I think what you're doing is amazing.
Speaker A:Rachel.
Speaker A:It's been a fascinating conversation.
Speaker A:I really hope that a lot of people get a lot from this conversation.
Speaker A:But also, you know, if they've sort of had that kind of, you know what, that this is the moment where I'm going to, you know, speak to my.
Speaker A:My company.
Speaker A:And we need better training.
Speaker A:We need a consultant to come in and talk more about this.
Speaker A:I hope they get in touch with you because I think what you're doing is fantastic.
Speaker A:And I love your website as well.
Speaker A:It's really, really cool and I love all the little quotes and it's fun.
Speaker A:It's great.
Speaker A:So thank you so much for being here, Rachel.
Speaker A:Really enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker A:If today's episode has been helpful for you and you're looking for even further support, my brand new book, the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit, is now available to order from anywhere you get your books from, I really hope this book is going to be the ultimate resource for anyone who loves the podcast and wants a deeper dive into all these kind of conversations.
Speaker A:Head to my website, ADHD women's well being.co.uk and you'll find all the information on the book there.
