What you Need Know About the ADHD Gut-Brain Connection
Despite many of us feeling challenged by undiagnosed ADHD for most of our lives, there is also a way to thrive alongside our ADHD. On today's episode, I talk to Dr Miguel Toribio-Mateas, known affectionately as "The Creative Scientist," a distinguished clinical neuroscientist and nutrition researcher in the UK.
His expertise centres on the intricate gut-brain connection, drawing on a rich, real-world scientific foundation rather than purely academic pursuits. Dr. Miguel's academic journey includes degrees in Nutritional Medicine and Clinical Neuroscience, culminating in a Doctorate focused on Mental Health and the Gut Microbiome.
Navigating life with ADHD and autism, Dr Miguel possesses a deep, personal understanding of the specific dietary needs of neurodivergent individuals. He emphasises the critical role of dietary choices in enhancing executive functioning, sensory processing, and emotional regulation.
His philosophy is captured in his words: “By understanding and addressing the nuanced relationships between what we eat and how our brains operate, we empower ourselves to make choices that not only nourish our bodies but also support our neurodivergent minds in navigating daily tasks and interactions more smoothly.”
On today's ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast, Dr Miguel and Kate spoke about:
- Miguel's journey to his ADHD diagnosis
- Bringing a more feminine softer energy to science
- The relationship between the gut and the Brain
- ADHD and disordered eating
- ADHD tendencies toward extreme behaviour
- Having self-compassion around your diet and what you eat
- How self-compassion can actually help your gut health
- Identifying sources of rejection sensitivity dysphoria
Dr Miguel offers personalized clinical consultations and has crafted a comprehensive course titled "Thrive with ADHD," available at drmiguelmateas.com/thrive-with-adhd-course. To discover more about his transformative work and offerings, visit drmiguelmateas.com or connect with him through social media for further insights.
Get £100 off of Dr Miguel's course "Thrive with ADHD" by using code WWP100 at the checkout >> https://drmiguelmateas.com/thrive-with-adhd-course
Look at some of Kate's ADHD workshops and free resources here.
Kate Moryoussef is a women’s ADHD Lifestyle & Wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity, and clarity.
Follow the podcast on Instagram here.
Follow Kate on Instagram here.
Find Kate's resources on ADDitude magazine here.
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Kate Moore Youssef:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Kate Moore Youssef:Here's today's episode.
Kate Moore Youssef:Today we've got Dr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Miguel Toribo Matthias.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now, he's affectionately known as the creative scientist and he is a distinguished clinical neuroscientist and nutrition researcher in the uk.
Kate Moore Youssef:And his expertise set centers on the intricate gut brain connection, drawing on a rich and real world scientific foundation rather than just the purely academic pursuits.
Kate Moore Youssef:And Dr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Miguel's academic journey includes degrees in nutritional medicine and clinical neuroscience, culminating in a doctorate focused on mental health and gut microbiome.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm absolutely.
Kate Moore Youssef:I know there's lots more to discuss here, but I know that you are fascinated in the profound effects of gut health on the mood, cognition and overall wellbeing.
Kate Moore Youssef:And you are doing this important work as a research fellow at Cardiff University School of Psychology.
Kate Moore Youssef:And you have also been diagnosed with ADHD and autism.
Kate Moore Youssef:So you really understand from a very deep personal level how important it is that we include all of this, the dietary, the gut, gut brain information, all of that in enhancing our life as neurodivergent individuals.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I just want to welcome you to the podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I can't wait to get stuck in.
Kate Moore Youssef:Welcome, Dr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Miguel.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Thank you so much, Kate, for having me.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's wonderful to be here.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'd just love to hear because obviously that biog that was, you know, hugely loaded in all your fantastic academic achievements, but I wanted to know kind of from a personal perspective, what led you to your ADHD and autism diagnosis and what was the path towards that?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I interestingly started thinking about ADHD first of all, when I was.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias: d to go back to University in: Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I really struggled with a lot of the deadlines.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I got like super high marks, but I was always late, like handing in the assignments and everything else.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So like, typical adhd, if you're motivated by something, you'll read everything.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I was always that, you know, if there were optional books, I was reading them I was reading all the articles, I was really getting stuck into all of the material, but I was really struggling to manage my time and to manage my energy and I was really, really stressed and I had to trek to.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Through London and the other side of London, I'm kind of in Hertfordshire and I had to go to southwest London, so it was a long commute and I was working as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:All my studies have always been while I was working.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I've been working since I was 14, like doing bits and bobs.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So, yeah, and I thought, might I be ADHD on the basis that I had a.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:There was another student who was diagnosed ADHD and he was on meds and we didn't really discuss it so much, but I saw him taking his medication and he told me about the adhd.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I thought at the time, but thinking about going to a psychiatry, so to a clinical psychology, so.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So on getting a diagnosis, it was quite daunting at the time and I think also the stigma thinking, oh, if this is psychiatric condition, maybe they are going to unearth something else if I go and see somebody who is going to diagnose me.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I didn't do anything about it until basically many years later.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias: It was in: Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I would be like very happy in general with, you know, as we can be like happy, go lucky in many aspects of our lives, but in other aspects, actually it really dysregulated and I was really burnt out as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that was the consequence of having a lifestyle and jobs that meant that I had to travel a lot.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Going back, you know, 20 plus years, I traveled a lot internationally.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I never really understood how much the travel and the having to show up and smile in front of audiences kind of depleted my energy.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I remember doing gigs for companies I was working in scientific publishing many, many years ago in a previous life.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And one of the companies that I had to deal with was Novartis.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I used to go to Basel a lot in Switzerland to do training on medical databases and so on.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I had 100 scientists in a room waiting for me and I'd be hiding in the toilet until five minutes before the session, petrified.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And then people are starting to get Aggie thinking, where is Miguel?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Oh, I don't know, he was having a coffee and I turn up in the.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:In the meeting room where everybody's waiting for me.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Two minutes before the session is due to start, and I have to put my, you know, my big smile on and deliver the session.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And then colleagues and other, you know, and delegates would go for dinner, and I would give it a miss because I would be.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:The moment that I finished the.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:The session, I would be.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:My adrenaline would just drop completely, and I would be completely exhausted.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But I just thought nothing of it.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I just thought, okay, well, maybe it's just performance anxiety in terms of, like, you know, public speaking or whatever, and.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But then the more I realize now, looking back at my life, the more I look into those situations, the more I realize that we face life in a different way.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Our brain works in a different way, and it demands.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It can deplete energy in different ways by doing things that other people would just think, well, it's just normal.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You're just turning up at work and doing what you need to do.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias: ory short and Fast forward to: Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I had done a number of those jobs where I had to show up and smile and deliver talks in front of large audiences and loads of trainings and things like that.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I just felt really, really depleted.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And it coincided with COVID as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias: So: Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I felt like the emotions were being somatized.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I felt them in my body, and I felt a lot of pain.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And at the time, I was working with a colleague who had just had his diagnosis, and we talked a lot about adhd, and I decided to go to the same psychiatrist that he had gone to, and she was a very kind lady.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I felt really safe with her.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she basically just said, well, you're very much textbook adhd.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And also we talked about the fact that males, if you are LGBTQ male, may be different because of the intersectionality of it all as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:People with different backgrounds and different life experiences will experience ADHD in different ways.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:She was very open about talking about things like that, so it was very interesting.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she also said, you know, you have a typical case of social anxiety, which was very strange to me because I thought I was always the life of the party.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I was partied a lot in my younger years, and I was always the life of the party.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I was the one to leave the club, the last, you know, the last of the gang.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You know, everybody would go home and I would stay, and I was always up for a party.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But was that because there was something else involved and it wasn't just me.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I was kind of, like, masking behind whatever substance or Alcohol was involved in that situation, so I didn't have to be the real me.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Because thinking back now, thinking of being sober, like, I don't even drink anymore.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I've been sober for the best part of two years now in terms of alcohol and just thinking of turning up in a club with music, loud music, and loads of people around me just freaks me out.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Now thinking of going to a festival or something like that, I'm thinking, oh, my God, it's just like, how would I face that situation?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I think all of those pieces fit nicely into that journey of how I got to my diagnosis.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she did say at the time, I'm pretty sure you are also autistic, but we need to do another diagnosis.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's another diagnostic process, so I wouldn't be able to tell you now.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And it kind of, like, stuck in my mind a little bit.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I didn't do it for another three years, and I did it last year, and I was diagnosed autistic as well, so.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I think the labels help in a way.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I don't use them or I try not to use them as an excuse to say, oh, I'm doing this because I'm autistic, or I'm doing this because my brain is adhd.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's a process of learning for everybody.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And it's valid to actually use those cards, in my view, because it kind of is a different way of seeing the world from before your diagnosis, and it's an adaptation period.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm trying to see those labels a little bit like my label of being gay.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm openly gay, but I don't chan up in a room.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And the first thing I say is, I'm gay is.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I'm trying to kind of, like, see the ADHD and the autism labels as something that helped me navigate the world and give me an understanding that my neurobiological landscape is unique, as yours will be as a woman with adhd, and everybody else's will be different slightly, because at the end of the day, we are people.
Kate Moore Youssef:I think you perfectly articulated so much that we've talked about the podcast before, but, you know, to hear it coming from your mouth, it's so validating to be able to see again how it manifests so differently.
Kate Moore Youssef:But I love the words you use, the neurobiological landscape, that we're all navigating this in our own unique way.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've got the connectedness of saying, yes, okay, we've got this label in inverted commas.
Kate Moore Youssef:But how that shows up and, like, you say like the access of care, the level of support that we can reach and what we've always known about ADHD is take the medication, maybe go and see a therapist, Goodbye, here's your is your diagnosis.
Kate Moore Youssef:But actually having all of this awareness of saying, right, if we can look after ourselves from a completely newly neuro affirmed and educated place, we can live well, would you agree and I guess tell us a little bit about what you believe is the way to live, thriving with ADHD through your lens of the gut brain connection?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I think the gut brain connection plays a crucial role because it connects the external world with your internal world in a way.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And going even a little bit deeper philosophically than that, food choices that before you even put anything in your mouth, food choices are determined a lot by emotions and by memories and by associations between those memories and the way that that food may have made you feel, the way that the food actually is perceived by society.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Because for example, now carbohydrates are very demonized and people kind of shy away from them thinking that all carbs are the same.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I'm going to have a low carb diet and that's going to be better for me.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So all of those things are kind of like playing in your mind.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And take an ADHD mind, it's going 100 miles an hour, it's going a lot faster than the neurotypical mind.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:All of those things that are kind of like little snippets of information are kind of like little bits of data that are floating around in the spin cycle of a washing machine that doesn't stop running.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:That, that is a typical overwhelmed ADHD mind that is not either not treated or that you're not aware of it.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So if you choose not to go with your traditional treatment with stimulants and so on, you can actually at least be aware that your mind is behaving a certain way and then you can do something about it.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So with all of that in mind, before you even put anything in your, in your mouth and you think, okay, I'm going to engage my digestive system, I'm going to engage the microbes in my gut, they're going to produce nice molecules that then are going to travel to my brain and all of that is going to happen.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that is the kind of like the, the basis of the gut brain connection in a nutshell.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You have all of those emotions to deal with.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And one of the key things in, in ADHD is that emotional dysregulation, the fact that emotions can affect us to an extent that they can overpower us.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:They can feel overwhelming, that something tiny can feel like a mountain, that something negative that somebody without ADHD or a neurotypical person can deal with in two seconds and they archive it and it's dealt with and that's fine.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It can actually bug us the whole day, and it can bug us for days.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You know, so a little act of unkindness, words that you've heard from somebody and they didn't sit right with you, they can actually be sitting with you for days and weeks.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So all of that is going to have an impact on the kind of foods that you're going to choose.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And if you go through your life without being mindful that that is the case, then you could actually be drawing.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You could be drawn to the wrong foods for the wrong reasons in your life.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And then you can actually get into unhealthy behaviors for your ADHD as well as for the rest of your body and your brain.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So not just ADHD and what I find that in general, both in, in the non ADHD community, but also in the ADHD stroke neurodivergent community, we kind of like try and reduce things quite a lot because it's easier to kind of make sense of nutrition, which is quite complicated.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:If you just think of good things, bad things, the science about days, the science about that, and kind of like build it all like almost like a house of cards in a way that you only need to blow it and it falls down because it needs to work for you.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And sometimes the choices that we make on, we don't make them for the right reasons.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So that sounds like a lot.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, but no, and I think it's interesting for you to kind of describe it like that because, you know, we, we know that there's a big prevalence of disordered eating, you know, specifically kind of binge eating cycles with adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:And to connect to that, not just to the sort of the dopamine seeking, but to understand the emotional connection of, you know, what you were describing with rsd, like how powerful RSD can be.
Kate Moore Youssef:And like you say, one comment, one conversation, and it can eat, literally eat us up, you know, from the inside.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we can't shake off that perspective and that from what I know, and I'm not a neuroscientist, but I know that we've got a default mode network that can be much more, whether you want to use the word aggressive or it just feels like it's a more powerful way of thinking where the Negativity bias.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we do ruminate and catastrophize and worry and ponder on so much that to know that we have that and then to have things that we can break the cycle with.
Kate Moore Youssef:For me, RSD has always been a big part of my life and to understand it and see it and to kind of almost have it separate from myself.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I can say, okay, that was a really hurtful comment, but am I going to choose to hold that with me now?
Kate Moore Youssef:Do I want to, do I want to carry that with me?
Kate Moore Youssef:Because that's going to be a weight and understand like what am I going to reach for?
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, people, some people reach for an alcoholic drink, some people reach for chocolate, whatever that is.
Kate Moore Youssef:But actually to just to see it as it is and say, right, I understand my brain, I understand that this is going to affect me and I am more sensitive to this and understand that we do often need perspective and to how do we get that perspective?
Kate Moore Youssef:Is it having a conversation with someone we trust who understands our brains, someone who can, who is a bit more pragmatic in thinking and pull us out of that kind of like doom cycle or have, you know, practices of grounding ourselves in nature, going for a walk, swimming, exercise, creativity, Anything that we know is gonna, is gonna pull us out of that, that, that head.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Absolutely.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I think.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Yeah, sorry I interrupted you.
Kate Moore Youssef:Adhd.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm just, I'm completely agreeing with what you're saying and that in a way is the part of how do you tackle that awareness?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So the first step is to be aware and I think the fact that we may have been harsher to ourselves than we need to be at certain points in life as well, and the fact that we need that kind of little bit of self compassion that I think is part of that.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Okay, so how do I now that I know I'm going to try and trace the source of this emotion.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So it might be the reason why I'm feeling rejected and the reason why I'm feeling that dysphoria around the rejection.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm going to try and source it to where it comes from.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Once you identify where it comes from, how can you ensure that that situation is not going to affect you the same way again?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Because otherwise you just fall in onto the same, into the same trap all the time.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And all of those things that you said, nature, creativity.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:For me, having a nutrition degree and having looked at nutrition as a key intervention for a lot of the stuff that I've done later are as important, if not more important than the nutrition Because I think sometimes we get really, really obsessed with getting the nutrition just right.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And with that obsession, sometimes we fuel the anxiety around our own health.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:That is not actually a healthy thing to do.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I've done that myself.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I had massively disordered eating from my teens.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I binged, I took slimming tablets in my teens and then I kind of, you know, I binged on loads of different things that, crunchy, sweet things, salty.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm quite drawn to salty, crunchy kind of foods.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:That is my sensory kind of.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I need.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I did that all through my 20s and I binged in my 30s and I discovered alcohol in my 30s because I never drank until, until my 30s.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I, I thought, wow, this is legal.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And it gets you more high than drugs that you can take in the clubs and you can buy in the news agents and go home with like this thing that will get.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:No, how is this possible?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I discovered alcohol and I thought, wow, this is amazing.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So all of those things that you get into, you think, okay, I know that taken out of context and if you think about the binging, it can be really negative.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But when you try to make diet so regimented by saying, this is only what I allow myself to eat, you put so many rules in place that it can actually become almost like another eating disorder in itself because it becomes very orthorexic in a way.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's only allowing yourself to eat the right foods that are going to fit into this regime that has a purpose for health.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that in itself is what orthorexia is.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So you only eat it if it's good for you and you'll get very obsessed about it.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I struggle with that a lot through my 30s and studying nutrition as well didn't help me with that because then you hyper focus on what is really good for you.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And then I tried so many things.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I was vegan for a while and then I was, I left the vegan and I went keto and then I left keto and I went paleo.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And then, you know, I'm gluten free and dairy free and you know, I've done it all.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And now the approach that I'm taking and that works for me and for a lot of other people that I've worked with that they decide, okay, well, I have a different journey to yours, but it mimics a lot of the steps.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But I've tried so many different things.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I've seen so many practitioners, I've tried so many different diets, and in the end, just being mindful of how foods make me feel and actually just being compassionate and allowing myself to have that little bit of crunch when I need the crunch.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Or, you know, like, for me it's popcorn and I'll binge on popcorn because I think, okay, well, of all of the things that I can binge on, popcorn is probably not going to be the worst thing in the world.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So rather than actually have a little bowl, I'll give myself a big bowl.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And like, when my other half sees me do that, he says, okay, you're stressed, aren't you?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I say, yes, I am.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And it's my stress bowl is my, you know, it's comfort and it makes me feel good.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I wouldn't want to do it every day because if I do that, then I'll put on weight and I don't want to put on weight.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I'm trying very hard to implement my exercise routine as well in my, in my daily life because it helps me feel better mentally as well as physically.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So it's kind of allowing yourself to be compassionate with yourself.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And to think, if I have that popcorn, it doesn't mean that I'm a failure now and that everything that I'm working towards, which is ideally having a diet that suits me right, and makes me feel good and everything else is not.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I've just thrown it all out of the window.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I think there is this kind of attitude that I say that everything needs to be perfect and everything needs to be just right.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:That is, I think it can be damaging 100%.
Kate Moore Youssef:Everything that you're saying is so validating to hear because it comes from such an informed, educationally, research based.
Kate Moore Youssef:And what we know is extremes aren't great.
Kate Moore Youssef:Ridding the shame, ridding the guilt.
Kate Moore Youssef:And to be able to live like that, I think, you know, the gut brain connection will.
Kate Moore Youssef:It must heal itself in a sort of softer kind of.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Because we focus a lot on the gut and okay, what reaches the gut.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So we look at the food and then we kind of dissect the foods into components and we think, okay, so this has got polyphenols that will help my gut bacteria.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Or this has more fiber that's going to help my gut bacteria.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You know, this has got some fats like omega 3 fatty acids that might actually be prebiotic in nature.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So they help the gut bacteria as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And some bifida bacteria can actually thrive on omega 3s and so on.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that's all great.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But what is very basic in terms of the gut brain connection is that if there is a gut brain connection and a brain gut connection, it is a bidirectional connection.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:They are both talking to each other.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And the brain with emotions that are as powerful as we know they are in adhd, is sending incredibly poignant messages to the gut to the point that that is the primal way of communication between the gut and the brain in a situation of fight or flight, which can be how our brains are actually and our nervous systems are hardwired in ADHD because of years of being told we're not good enough, of rejection, of tiny traumas, massive traumas, all of that.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Why is the nervous system in such a way that we are hyper vigilant, we are mere cutting, we kind of, you know, just ready for the next negative thing that is going to hit us.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And sometimes we don't even realize because we have become almost so used to that rejection that it is part of that basic mechanism.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:That's what I'm trying to say.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So if the brain is saying to the gut the emotions that I'm overpowered with now are negative, that is the same thing as having a lion just behind you that's going to attack you.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And literally, whether the brain is actually overpowered by a negative emotion or whether you have a negative situation that is physical just about to happen to you, that perceived stress or that real stress of the lion or the train or the bus that's going to hit you and the, and the stress of something that is just in your imagination but is happening in your brain is real, that is happening, that, that is having the same effect on your gut.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's basically the message that your brain is sending to your gut is can you tone down your activity?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Because in a situation of danger, I don't want you to be spending any energy.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I want the energy for me.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:The brain is selfish and wants the energy for itself because it needs to get you out of that danger.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So in a way selfish, knowing that it's going to need that energy to take you out of the, of the, of the potential threat.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And when you think about it, that is actually very powerful because a lot of people with ADHD will have digestive issues, will have kind of IBS type symptoms, they'll have potential low inflammation situations in the gut.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:They don't agree with certain foods, food intolerances, all of that is quite typical in the neurodivergent community.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:That might also strike from the fact that the brain is constantly telling the gut to take a step down in terms of its activity.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So there's A lot of the processes that normally happen in the gut, like the very first steps in digestion, which is saliva forming in the, in the mouth that carries enzymes that break down the food already from the mouth into the stomach, to the formation of stomach acid, to the formation of enzymes in the, in the pancreas, to bile producing in the gallbladder, all of those are necessary ingredients for food to start being digested more properly in the small intestine to then the appropriate amount and diversity of bacteria in your colon so they can actually extract the nutrients from the food that reaches the colon.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And all of that is depending on a calm nervous system or rather than a calm nervous system, which is, it's never going to be completely calm.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:A nervous system that is resilient and able to withstand these ups and downs of life.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And if your nervous system is hardwired for drama, which a lot of it is the case in adhd, and you're getting drama from yourself because of the self talk that you're giving yourself, or I'm not allowing myself to give, to eat this because this will happen if I eat that.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that, that self talk that stops you from doing things that are, in a way common sense.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Unless you are, of course, you know, celiac or you have any clinical situation that any of the ingredients you're allergic to or, you know, some people, I talk about kefir, for example, and some people say, oh, I've got, I react really badly to histamine.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Okay, well, of course that, you know, if you know that that is your situation, of course, don't take a food that will put you in danger, that's going to make you feel ill.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I'm not talking about pushing foods that are potentially going to make you feel sick.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm talking about foods that have a purpose in health that is documented in literature quite widely at high level, quite high quality of experiments and that I wasn't allowing myself to put in my body because of different reasons.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And when I talk to people, it happens to so many people, we do that to ourselves.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that negative self talk is literally just fueling that fight or flight situation that our central nervous system is already wanting.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You know, we are wired for drama and we're giving it drama.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So it's kind of like a cycle of perpetuating the drama in adhd.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I think the way to get out of the drama is self compassion and self acceptance in all different shapes.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So first accept yourself for the fact that, okay, I'm still carrying five kilos more than I would like to carry.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Although I'm carrying 15 kilos less than four years ago.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:My journey has been long since being diagnosed and being burnt out.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But when I had no other choice but to actually be kind to myself because I had.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I was bedridden when I was burnt out and when I was diagnosed I was actually, I was finding it very difficult to get out of bed.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I had to like put on a smile to do zoom calls at work and then go back to bed for a while because I was really that, that burnt out.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I think I was pushed to be kind.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I didn't have the energy to think.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I cannot allow myself to eat this.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm just going to eat whatever.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm going to be intuitive in what I'm drawn to eating.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Just because I didn't have the energy to get into the drama of this is allowed, this is not allowed.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:This is making me feel like this.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm going to get fat.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:My trousers won't fit.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I was my energy, I didn't have the energy to spend thinking about all of that.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So in a way that helped me perversely to become more acceptant of accepting of myself.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And then you start cultivating that compassion little by little.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And we can talk about what brain parts are involved in all of that.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But it's fascinating.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:The whole science of, of compassion to yourself and to others taps straight into the gut brain connection and into diminishing inflammation throughout the body and into making you feel better and more hormonally balanced and everything else.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Because all of that is connected.
Kate Moore Youssef:Hi.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I'm just interrupting today's podcast because I wanted to let you know about some upcoming workshops that I've got opening in July, June and July.
Kate Moore Youssef:August actually.
Kate Moore Youssef:So firstly I want to let you know about my four session live, ask me anything.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now this is an opportunity for you to come on live, ask me questions, get some hot seat coaching really to get some support, you know, whether it's before or after a diagnosis.
Kate Moore Youssef:If you've got any burning questions, anything that you just wanted to ask my advice on or guidance, I'm there.
Kate Moore Youssef:I can't wait to do this.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've got the first one happening on the 27th of June, so that's.
Kate Moore Youssef:And this is your opportunity just to come on, meet other like minded people.
Kate Moore Youssef:You can either send me your question beforehand and I can answer it live or you can come on on camera or you can just write in the chat.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now remember that whenever we do these live sessions and you ask a question, that question is always going to be for someone else as well.
Kate Moore Youssef:And, you know, likewise, when someone else asks a, they are going to always be asking for the collective.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that is what I think is so powerful about this community.
Kate Moore Youssef:We are all dealing with things maybe differently and just different circumstances, but very much with adhd we have a lot of common denominators and that is why I want to do these four sessions.
Kate Moore Youssef:There's one in June, it's first one's June 27th.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've got two in July and one in August.
Kate Moore Youssef:So these will be recorded and you're able to really just come on and tap into my knowledge.
Kate Moore Youssef:I really want to make this as supportive and affordable as possible.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I, I just want to let you know about a free webinar I'm doing with my friend, my colleague, Adele Wimser.
Kate Moore Youssef:She's an ADHD hormonal expert and what she doesn't know about hormones and ADHD is, you know, really is second to none.
Kate Moore Youssef:And this is happening on July 9th at 7pm and with the conversation that we're going to be having is about demystifying progesterone and adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:So we hear a lot about estrogen and perimenopause, but actually, can we understand the role of progesterone and perhaps the slightly negative reputation it's had, especially for those of us who considered ourselves progesterone sensitive and many of us with neurodivergent minds and nervous systems, we have very much felt that progesterone is sort of the anti hero in our, in our story.
Kate Moore Youssef:So this is happening on the 9th of July.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now, I know that all this information is very overwhelming, so I'm going to just say go to my website, ADHD womenswellbeing.co.uk and you'll see on the homepage the two buttons and all the information is on there.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now back to today's episode.
Kate Moore Youssef:What I wanted to ask, which, you know, includes all of this, is as a neuroscientist, we are rewiring our brains to think different thoughts and maybe to accept that we are going to have these busy brains and we're going to have brains that are going to have this constant kind of conversation loop.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I do believe over time it takes a while because it's a completely new practice.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's like basically our brains operating in a different way, but over time that very critical self talk can dissipate and we can start hearing those sort of more gentle, the softer nudges.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I know we spoke before about maybe embracing more of a Feminine energy, where perhaps before.
Kate Moore Youssef:And it's not about, you know, gender or sex or anything like this.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's understanding that the doing energy was more masculine and the productivity and, you know, external validation and showing people how great you are with all these academic achievements.
Kate Moore Youssef:Not you personally, but just all of us wanting to kind of just keep going on this treadmill.
Kate Moore Youssef:The burnout kicks in and we just literally crash.
Kate Moore Youssef:We can't do anything.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then being able to say, actually, is there another option here?
Kate Moore Youssef:Is there a softer, more gentle, kinder option that we can live where we put a lens, we operate through that lens, where it's with our careers, with parenting, relationships, friendships, socializing, the way we eat is more intuitive.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I'd love to talk a little bit more about that with you as someone with all the science behind him to more of the spiritual side of what I like to talk about and saying that we can let go of the doing and the, the productivity and just be a little bit more in the present moment and feel a bit more grounded and calm and.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, I'd love to hear it from your perspective as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And when you were saying about the feminine, I, I completely agree.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's not about gender, it's about softness.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And even science can be very masculine, particularly science that is quantitative.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I get bemused by people just being obsessed by, oh, show me the evidence and show me a systematic review and show me a control group and show me all of these kind of things, which of course, I agree as a scientist, this is the gold standard for a particular way of going about science.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:The science of nutrition is particularly tricky because of the emotions attached to food, of the belief system attached to different food choices.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:All of that taken into account doesn't detract from the fact that there are more ways of looking at science than just the numbers, than just the control groups and the systematic reviews and the randomized control trials.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:There is qualitative science that is very powerful.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:A lot of the psychology science, a lot of the neuroscience science that goes away from imaging and molecules that you can identify in a test is going to be self reported.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:When somebody self reports, you need to analyze that in a completely different way.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And if you go about analyzing that data from the.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:With masculine energy, you miss out on the nuances and the richness of the, of the data, which is more feminine.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's got power in the, in the context of how it happens in the.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Is soft.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And when I did my doctoral degree, I did two things, so I did like a set of experiments that would have been the more masculine kind of a part.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And then I wrote a self reflective piece that was based on different methods, that was more qualitative.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And for that I actually drew from social feminist theory.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I looked at how the, the feminists in key moments of history, like the 70s, for example, they looked at things in a completely different way.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:They gave value to the unfinished.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So it didn't need to be even completed to have value.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Something didn't need to be completed to have value.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:That's just one example.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I looked into the work of people like Donna Haraway, wonderful feminist lady who talked about the value of interspecies connections, so talked about the richness of brain development when you have a pet, and particularly dogs.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So she talked about relationships with dogs and how they enrich human life.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So really interesting stuff that is not a randomized controlled trial.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And it completely opened my mind to.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I came into the doctoral degree thinking, oh, it's all going to be numbers and I'm going to crunch all these numbers and I'll produce appendices with more data and blah, blah.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And when I, the more I got into the qualitative aspects of science, I'm thinking, wow, I wish I had just done a qualitative only doctoral degree.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Because this is, this is bloody amazing.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:This is completely incredible.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And there's a lady called Audre Lorde who was black.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:She was born half blind and very, a very weak baby in Harlem in New York in the 30s, in the middle of the big depression.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she became, well, she was a lesbian black lady living her life in the 50s, 60s and into the 90s until she died.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she did incredible things.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But she wrote about the, the oppression that black women felt during certain parts of the 20th century.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And a lot of her books actually, and the way that she wrote remind me of the neurodiversity movement, of how it's actually developing and how there are tensions between people in the actual movement because of the way that we see things.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that is healthy in a way, it's kind of like developing towards something that is going to be much bigger.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she talked about differences as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she talked about.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:She has a very famous quote which is, it's not our differences that divide us, is our inability to recognize, accept and celebrate those differences.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I love that quote so much because I think if we recognize that there is that feminine energy in, in everywhere, in the, in the universe, but also in science and that we can learn so much about ourselves and about adhd, and neurodiversity or other neurodivergent conditions.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:If we go beyond the what is published in a randomized controlled trial, what is published in a systematic review, there is the lived experience of you.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:You have your own lived experience, which is unique to you and is valid.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And just because it's unique to you, it doesn't mean that it's not valid.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So if mine is completely different, I still need to accept that yours is valid and actually celebrate that difference.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And that is what Audre Lorde basically was all about.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I'm really drawn to that lift experience and the feminine element of lift experience, the fact that everything that we feel is valid to us.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So in a way it should be valid in general for the community that we are part of.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I don't think we are there yet, but we are.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:We raised in awareness of that commonality of experience that we have.
Kate Moore Youssef:So interesting.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I wonder, you know, from doing all that research about feminism and especially sort of back in the day, did you notice any neurodivergent traits in the feminists that you were researching?
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm pretty sure, yeah.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:There is this physicist called Karen Barrett who's written about the origins of the universe and, and she wrote about this thing called refraction, not diffraction, which is basically a different way of looking at.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's a philosophical concept.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's a different way of looking at how it stems from how light actually reflects on objects and it goes into different places.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:But she used it as a way to talk about how anything in life can actually be a departure point according to how it is almost like comparing how light reflects in a mirror and then it goes into different directions.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:How you can start discussion about any particular topic by not just always looking at the same departure point, but using any of the points that the light has been reflected to as the departure point.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And she has other wacky kind of concepts like that.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I thought that, to me sounds very adhd, kind of like autistic kind of thinking, that very out of the box kind of way of thinking.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Yeah, yeah, there's.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, there's a school of thought that Agatha Christie was adhd, you know, so you sort of hear about these pioneering, you know, women, strong women, you know, doing incredible things throughout history, and you kind of think, I wonder if that wasn't the drive, the ADHD drive or the autism, where we're sort of hyper focused on a passion subject or something like that, where it's just fascinating because there's so many different ways of looking at all of this.
Kate Moore Youssef:But I'm so glad that you can validate a lot of what the listeners are probably thinking is our lived experience is our lived experience.
Kate Moore Youssef:And sometimes the science isn't there.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, we know, especially with women right now, the science isn't there.
Kate Moore Youssef:To back up so many of the hormonal issues, the women's health issues, the gut problems, the autoimmune problems, all the different things that women have experienced and gone through and doctors have sort of dismissed and gaslit us about.
Kate Moore Youssef:And because there isn't this science, that masculine energy, saying that's true, okay, I believe you.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now we have to kind of go with more of that feminine energy of saying your experience is valid.
Kate Moore Youssef:And, you know, maybe we need to be a bit more intuitive about this and just, just offer compassion and kindness until science catches up.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that's so much of the work that I've been doing that I'm not a scientist in any way.
Kate Moore Youssef:But the more I speak to people like yourself who have embedded themselves in this, the science community, it's just substantiating what so many of us have known for so long.
Kate Moore Youssef:I just want to thank you so much.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's been absolutely fascinating, so much information here and we've probably not even scratched the surface.
Kate Moore Youssef:But if, you know, if anyone's listening right now and thinking, I'd love to work with you or hear more, more from you about your work, tell me what's going on for you right now.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I have a course that is available now.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's called Thrive with adhd.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And a lot of what we have talked about is in the course from a neuro affirming way of looking at ADHD as a neurotype, as a unique neurobiological landscape.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:As I was saying in the beginning to nutrition, there is seven modules on the course and you can take it as you go, basically at your own pace.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's recorded, but once you sign up, you have access to me as well and you can ask me questions and so on.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And there is also a discussion group that you can join and contribute to.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:There is ample information on the gut brain connection in relationship to adhd.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And the way that I've gone about it is by looking at the neurobiology of it all.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So I think knowledge can be very empowering.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Some of the feedback that I've had is that I would say that it goes with that feminine energy and that makes me happy because of course there is a lot of science behind everything that is in there.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:And I haven't made anything up.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:When I'm talking about mindful eating, it's all about the science of intuitive eating, which is really well reported in literature.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:When I've talked about making mindful decisions around food, it's all a combination of mindfulness based cognitive therapy and other forms of therapy.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:I'm not a therapist but you know, the science is there and you can draw from it.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So that I'm quite proud of having done that because it was actually very therapeutic for me to do and I really enjoyed putting it together.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:It's available now on my website.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Also I'll give you a code so people who want to sign up they can get and they can get a discount as well.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:So there is that and then I'm doing the equivalent in a book and the book will be thrive with ADHD and will be out whenever I write it.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias: g for late this year or early: Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias: going to be January, February: Kate Moore Youssef:Amazing.
Kate Moore Youssef:Well, so much fantastic information there and the course sounds incredible.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I will make sure that we get all the information in the show notes.
Kate Moore Youssef:And thank you so much Dr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Miguel for sharing your knowledge and your personal insights and look forward to catching up again very soon.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Thank you so much Kate.
Dr. Miguel Toribo Matthias:Thanks so much for having me.
Kate Moore Youssef:I really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
Kate Moore Youssef:If you did and it resonated with you, I would absolutely love it if you could share on your platforms or maybe leave a review and a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Kate Moore Youssef:And please do check out my website ADHD womenswellbeing.co.uk for long of free resources and paid for workshops.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm uploading new things all the time and I would absolutely love to see you there.
Kate Moore Youssef:Take care and see you for the next episode.
