NEW SERIES! The Power of Psychoeducation: The Key to Understanding Anxiety and ADHD

ADHD WW - Josh Fletcher - for upload - LUFS

Kate: [: 00:00:00

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey. Here's today's episode.

l the mashup episodes, which [: 00:01:00

If you listen to them two or three times, you'll always glean something new. And today we have a brand new guest. I'm absolutely delighted, um, to, to have this guest on. But first I just wanted to let you know. that the toolkit, the subscription version of the podcast is now launched. So if you're listening on Apple, this is where it's available.

And I have created the toolkit as a supplementary and additional podcast to really help you dive into the more intricate parts of your ADHD, to help you to get that support. I'm basically opening up this vault, I keep saying the word vault because I don't know how else to describe it, of all the content that I've been creating over the past few years.

normally would be because I [: 00:02:00

It's not possible for me. And I'm on this three or four year waiting list. And that is not okay. That is not okay for people to gain an understanding and an awareness. And validation and help and guidance to making small manageable changes. Now it's not to replace medication. We need to get that straight because unfortunately with ADHD medication can be vital.

pay a full year subscription [: 00:03:00

Give yourself a free trial. It's two weeks. And I hope that the content that's being uploaded in that two weeks that you can listen, you'll realize how helpful it is and you'll carry on listening. And by all means, please tell me, tell me what you want to hear as well. So today's guest is Joshua Fletcher.

He's anxiety Josh on Tik TOK on Instagram. He's a psychotherapist and he's an author and he uses his platforms and books to provide psychoeducation about anxiety. And he has got an amazing book that's just been out called, how does that make you feel? And it's sold thousands of copies. So I really hope that you enjoy today's conversation.

Here it is, Josh Fletcher.

Josh: Okay. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I've been looking forward to this.

Kate: Yeah, and I'm excited because we're actually just down the road from each other. I literally interview people from all around the world and you are just down the road in Manchester. So it's lovely to talk to you.

uests and just rely on tech. [: 00:04:00

I know your book has been incredibly popular, but I was just wondering if we could go back a little bit further and maybe talk about your own. I know that you've gone through anxiety yourself in different capacities. Could you perhaps just share with us a little bit about your background?

Josh: Yeah, sure. Um, so I grew up near here in, uh, in greater Manchester.

Um, I always wanted to be a primary school teacher. It was like the dream of mine. After I finished my undergrad, I went through a very stressful time in my life. Obviously finished uni, I was broke, going through a lot of stress, went through a breakup, moved back to Greater Manchester, trying to find a job, trying to get out of debt.

r, and unfortunately, at the [: 00:05:00

Lots of, uh, anxious kids. And, um, if you're not sure what pupil referral unit is, it's for where children go when they can't access mainstream education due to. Their behavior or various reasons, um, when I was there all the stress built up and it built up and it built up and it built up and One morning I dissociated now if anyone is very prevalent with people with adhd And people struggle with anxiety and stress One morning.

on here? Uh, people's faces [: 00:06:00

So not very not very well And I then I developed agoraphobia couldn't leave the house for space six months, uh, can very unwell with what I now know was the start of an anxiety disorder. I feel like I didn't have the appropriate help from the doctor. Can you imagine now going to the doctor and being like, hi doctor, I feel like I'm in the matrix, you look weird.

What's going on? I can hear my own voice. Very hard to describe what I now know as dissociation. I subsequently struggled with panic attacks and feared those panic attacks. I would shape my life around not having panic attacks. Which doesn't work. And it was a grim place to be in. I didn't feel like I had the right help until I did find some help.

f Dr. Claire Weeks, who's my [: 00:07:00

Then at the start of COVID, my mate said, Everyone's losing their minds. Why don't you start an Instagram page about anxiety with helpful content? I was like, all right, and then it went from there and then my Instagram page exploded and write books about it, etc. But yeah, I mean that's a bit about Where I came from and why I do what I do.

I'm really passionate about helping people with anxiety feel seen

Kate: Wow. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, what were the tools that you found the most helpful for yourself?

ducation saved my life. It's [: 00:08:00

I felt like no one got me. I didn't understand these intrusive thoughts I was having. I didn't understand these waves of fear and fright. Didn't understand dissociation, why that was happening. My heart racing, skipping beats. Um, the need to run out of places that weren't dangerous, but I felt unsafe. Why my brain fixated?

me it was really helpful to [: 00:09:00

So if I had panic attacks, I'd fixate on them. If I had an intrusive thought, I'd fixate on them. If I worried about what someone thought about me, I'd fixate on it. Uh, don't get me wrong. Being a fixate is cool. If you fixate on productive stuff, then, you know, great things happen. If I fixate on work, projects, whatever, but that fixation part of my personality was really, really helpful.

To identify because I can label it and step back.

Kate: When you say about fixate, or I'm sort of thinking about like the hyper focus element of ADHD of yeah, and really kind of like having those things where we, we hyper focus. But when you say about fixating, it is, I do see that more in like the anxiety sense.

who hasn't had some form of [: 00:10:00

And, um, I know that there's so many people listening here that may have been diagnosed with anxiety and the neurodivergence has come decades later. So they've been sort of given anxiety, um, tools, practice, or maybe they haven't, they've been medicated and they just know that there's something else beneath the surface.

And we know now with ADHD that it's the internalized, the restlessness, the mind, the nonstop thinking, the ruminating, the overthinking, the catastrophizing, all of that. That really kind of helps kickstart that anxiety and we spiral with it. And so when you talk about psychoeducation, for me as well, that was the biggest thing.

'm more prone to anxiety and [: 00:11:00

And I just, if I just powered through, if I just tried to think different, if I just did something better and that again, you know, the understanding, the awareness, the recognition has been so powerful. But if someone's sort of thinking, what's psychoeducation, can you break that down a little bit?

Josh: Yeah, sure.

So, I mean, when we look at psychoeducation, we look at what anxiety is. Anxiety is. The brain's threat response, the almond in our brain called the amygdala, everyone has one, whether you're neurotypical, neurodivergent, whether you're a mammal, you know, we have the amygdala, it's the fastest, oldest, but not the smartest part of our brains, and it will fire off either when it detects threat, Or it'll fire off in response to accumulated stress for a lot of people.

That [: 00:12:00

Maybe there's self esteem issues about your identity, what it is to be valued. You mentioned a bit, hinted a bit about productivity, anxiety, where you're constantly driven, have to keep doing stuff because if I don't, if I keep still, I feel guilty, et cetera, et cetera. But what happens is this oldest part of our brain, which isn't linked two ways to our thinking brain, tries to look after us like an overprotective parent.

t down with my clients and I [: 00:13:00

Um, When terms psychoeducation it was really helpful for me to understand that the amygdala Is something that fires off out of my control in the short term anyway And it fired off for me because of accumulated stress So it floods my body with adrenaline and cortisol and hijacks my attention to bring my attention to potential threats So suddenly i'm in asda trying to buy my beans And my bread And now, everything looks weird.

The lights are brighter, my peripheral vision is shut down, my heart's racing, I'm dissociating, and I feel really scared like something awful is about to happen. And, that's because the amygdala's kicked in and flooded me with loads of adrenaline and cortisol. Um, you know it's the um, psychoeducation's really helpful.

ning anxiety and rumination. [: 00:14:00

And it makes you feel icky and horrid and this doom feeling for someone who struggles with PMDD, perimenopause and menopause, you know, rather than having those lovely balancing hormones of progesterone and estrogen, the body's like. Best I can do is cortisol and just gives you loads of cortisol instead.

, but trying not to fear and [: 00:15:00

Um, and it was really helpful for me too. I honestly, when I used to struggle with panic attacks, I was diagnosed with OCD as well. It would feel very important to give this potential threat, whether it's a thought, or a feeling, or something, or a situation, attention. And what I learned was to do the opposite.

Whilst feeling like rubbish, to rewire my brain, and I managed to get to a really good place. I live a very happy, content life now.

Kate: It's interesting, isn't it? Because that power of understanding and the labeling and then saying, okay, this is what's going on. Neurologically, we're understanding the amygdala.

ety, that spiral and getting [: 00:16:00

And I find a very helpful tip is to, for myself is to almost talk. To the anxiety taught to the situation and say to myself, like, okay, I can, you can feel that this is happening. I can, you can feel that it's brewing, um, the sensations in your body and, and really sort of almost distance myself from. The, uh, the flood I would say, and, and, and help myself kind of almost taught myself through the situation.

And that has been really helpful for me. And I spoke to Dr. Russell Ramsey, and he said this, that it is a psychological term called distance self talk, which I found really validating. I shared on my Instagram and so many people said that they'd been struggling with anxiety all their life. They said, I've actually just been doing that intuitively.

f people that although we're [: 00:17:00

Would you, do you have any tips about something like that? If someone is in the supermarket and they do feel that panic rising, is there anything that you can help with?

Josh: Yeah, I mean, listen, if something works for you, you do that. I think it's really cool. Uh, I often speak to myself to give myself a pep talk, maybe if to give myself some encouragement and compassionate pats on the back, and we encourage that.

ible feelings Uh me included [: 00:18:00

Encouraging myself definitely works. Talking to my anxiety, it actually didn't work for me. It actually made me feel more anxious because I techniquified it. I was like, well, I'm telling myself I'm brave and I'm doing this and the anxiety is not needed and I'm safe and I'm breathing and I've stopped and I've done my belly breathing and I've done my visualization.

Why do I feel 10 times worse because I feared and misinterpreted the anxious response itself? I actually stopped I was safe and I wasn't showing the brain particularly the amygdala that this situation is safe because I stopped I stopped and gave it my attention and I did this for years Um, and so for me what I would do is say would use positive self talk, but i'd frame it in the sense of Yeah, I'm going to feel uncertain right now.

red that way. Interestingly, [: 00:19:00

Compliment it, ask it out on a date. It ain't listening because it's not wired that way. So, uh, you know, I hear a lot of, tell the anxiety that it's not needed. It's not listening. It's, it's got you on mute. Um, but what you can do is show it and talk to yourself. So for me, when I was doing exposure therapy for agoraphobia or intrusive thoughts, uh, I remember Not long after that time, I just said at the start of the episode was I needed to get back out there.

I feel sensitive to light. I [: 00:20:00

I feel like I'm gonna go crazy. That was my favorite one. You're gonna go crazy. And, Then I would say to myself, no Josh, you know what this is. You know exactly what this is. This is normal. This is okay Yes things feel incongruous because you're in tesco express feeling like there's a gun to your head But actually this is very physiologically, okay You can do this.

You can be brave And ride it out, because the body could only, it only has a finite amount of adrenaline and cortisol, so, you know, call it's bluff. And then I would go in and get my five items, it would take me forever, because one, I can't concentrate, and two, I'm feeling scared and want to escape. But slowly doing that, and the same applies to my intrusive thoughts, just riding it out, not talking to it, not engaging in safety compulsions.

exist. Um, so yeah, I say to [: 00:21:00

You will find something that will work for you.

Kate: I think what you're sharing is really powerful for, for so many people, because like you say, you're laboring, labeling these things and you're, you know, like you said, some tools and practices just don't work for certain people and some do. Um, you know, that's why it's so personalized.

I think individualized, um, this approach that we have to kind of recognize that People have different anxieties for different things and there's going to be different approaches. What are your thoughts then of combining the psychoeducation alongside the medication, lifestyle changes and tweaks? Like we can do all the self talk and all of that, but actually sometimes we need extra scaffolding.

when you're helping people? [: 00:22:00

Josh: Ah, that's a great question. Um, obviously medication stuff, you've got to make sure you have a nice, uh, Uh, relationship with your psychiatrist, GP, health team, to get the dose right. My approach as a therapist, so, I see, I work with a lot of people with, who've had, who've had ADHD, who have anxiety, who come to me with a multitude of things.

Um, ADHD is just part of all the stuff that they've been through. Um, I use the, the old metaphor of the stress jug. It's not new, it's not original, but I like it. In my practice, my aim is to, we identify what's in the stress jug. So immediately, and I got a huge whiteboard in my practice. And, you know, once a teacher, always a teacher.

a carafe on the whiteboard. [: 00:23:00

The world burning, et cetera. Uh, and then we'll put other things in there like grief, ADHD, autism, and anxiety disorder itself. The fear of fear, stress, horrible work colleagues, maybe mommy and daddy weren't very nice and we have some horrible resentment built up towards them. Maybe we've been through traumatic stuff, you know, we've been on the receiving end of horrible things that goes in the stress jug.

Everyday stuff. Politics. Elections. I forgot to put the bins out. Environmental issues. That goes in there too. And other things about your identity. Self esteem. How do you value yourself as a person? Well, I only have value when I look a certain way, I've achieved a certain thing, I come, and people accept me, etc, etc.

That goes in there too. And [: 00:24:00

It doesn't understand why you had an argument with your sister. It doesn't understand why you're fretting over your social media presence. It doesn't understand that because it's the oldest part of our brain. It doesn't understand. It's just trying to look after us. It doesn't understand why we're stressed.

So what I do, and what my approach is, is that we empty as much of the stress drug as we can. Now, there are things in the immediate, you know, short term that we can do. So I said, well what can we work on, what can we empty now? Uh, well I want to get my ADHD sorted. Well, maybe not, you know. You know, that's going to be part of you, it's how your brain works, similar to me.

re. We're never going to get [: 00:25:00

I want to talk about my friend who's annoying me. I want to talk about the world, whatever. Okay, and talking helps empty out the stress jug. I want to talk about my anxiety and my fear of anxiety and intrusive thoughts. Okay. Well, here's some psychoeducation. Does that turn the anxiety off? No. Does understanding it help?

Actually, yeah. And now we've emptied half the stress jug out. Wow. Okay. Have we applied perfectionistic traits and tried to get rid of everything in the stress jug? No. And no one's got that. No one on the planet can empty out their stress jug. And the perfectionists really struggle with this one. But what we do is we try and make it as light as possible.

ss drug is overflowing, that [: 00:26:00

Uh, I know when I'm super stressed, um, my sensory overload is a big warning sign for me. It's like, wow, why is that supermarket light burning my retinas? Uh, and certain sounds are really difficult for me to process. Um, and that's what I do. That's the constant what I do. There's no one thing. or approach. We just, as a therapist, I try to work through and, um, and empty it as best I can.

Kate: I think that the power of externalizing, isn't it? And, you know, for those of us lucky enough to be able to have like one to one therapy, it's, it really is so powerful. Coaching therapy, journaling can be really helpful, being able to sit down and just have a couple of prompts of like, What's in my stress jug today?

eling of like, uh, releasing [: 00:27:00

And there's so many uncontrollables. I think with anxiety. We like to have some control. We like to be able to know and the perfectionism that you're talking about can be very overbearing sometimes. And when there's things externally that we just can't control, maybe just recognizing that and saying, yes, politics right now is really scary.

The world events right now. Um, we've just gone through a pandemic and we're still in this sort of the, the, the after effects of it and, you know, a pandemic who would have thought we would have ever gone through this and gone through, you know, and we've still got these tremors that are happening for five years later.

this podcast. I think we are [: 00:28:00

It was a stigmatized conversation that maybe you sort of had a quick mutter with another friend, but now we're understanding the signs of, of perimenopause. We're able to understand, like you say, with the psychoeducation, make sense, understand our health and understand those connections. We're now understanding this with this increased awareness of ADHD later on in life.

, of recognizing that we are [: 00:29:00

We're having tools and support and conversations and women wanting to empower each other. We've got groups and I want to come towards, you know, we've worked on the, The psychological tools, we've understood that therapy, medication can be incredibly helpful for ourselves in that respect. But from a lifestyle perspective for anxiety, it is quite a big, all encompassing approach, isn't it?

To anxiety. It's not just. What we've talked about.

Josh: Yeah, multi faceted. Um, and finding out what works for you. Exercise is really important for my mood. I don't exercise to get rid of anxiety. I exercise to put myself in a better mood. So if I do get anxious, I You know, I'm all right. I can handle this. It's okay.

he big ones that I forgot to [: 00:30:00

It's not it's A lot of emotional conservatism is when we revere not showing our emotions Or not showing vulnerabilities, you know for fear of being judged or perhaps we see the ability to hide emotions as strength You know, the cliche is men is a man doing it but I see a lot happening with with with women as well because of the shame you mentioned before there about You You know, talking about the menopause 20 years ago wasn't even considered, um, and still now people are quite ashamed to talk about it.

Let's, let's talk about it. [: 00:31:00

Um, it's something I've come to terms with only recently, to be honest. I did a talk the other day in London and you know, I'm autistic. And one of my stims is to wave my hand around like a seal. Yeah. And I was just like, and I was just flapping my hand around and then I was like, if you're wondering what I'm doing, that's just what I do, you know?

I'm not, that's just what I do when I'm like, when I have emotions, you know, and it was nice to unmask in that way. Uh, I also have, there's a few stims I won't do. I'm not very. Uncomfortable to do that yet. But like, yeah, in general, it's like, I'm not shamed of who I am. I'm not trying to conform, push myself into a norm for people, um, anymore.

in front of people anymore. [: 00:32:00

I don't see any shame in asking for help. I think a lot of people, particularly in the neurodivergent community, as a reaction to always feeling like the outsider and not the friend, Feeling part of things is to do the opposite, is to become hyper independent. Look, I can do it. I'm hyper independent. I will show you this and this and that.

For me, I was the same, but then it was like, actually no, there's a humility and a gift to ask for help and tell people what I need, uh, should I need it. So yeah, I just wanted to talk a bit about that emotional conservatism side of things. It's okay. Don't get me wrong. Don't go to your mate's birthday party and start crying on the cake and making all about you.

But I'm saying is it's okay to, you know, convey what you need.

ogy before. So thank you for [: 00:33:00

Josh: I made it up, Kate. Modern day Shakespeare down the road here in Old Trafford. Also fixator. Fixator isn't a word. I made that up.

So there's gonna be all these terms and everyone's like, who's this? Absolutely. You can tell me anything. I'll be like,

Kate: yeah, you're a psychotherapist. I'll just leave it. It's fine. But it is, and you know, especially with you, you've got a big social media following. You're a young guy and you are modeling to a lot of other, I'm going to speak to men mostly that who have kind of like found it hard to show their emotions and talk about their emotions just to articulate, just to be able to say, this is what I'm feeling.

And to be able to actually. Convey their emotions. I know so many men who have been so shut down that to talk about their emotions, it's just, they just don't have the language for it. So what you're doing on social media is, is incredible. And we need more men to be in touch with their emotions, to be able to talk.

hat, how you felt and did it [: 00:34:00

Josh: I've always been feel different and stuff. I remember watching a video of me in the school play as a kid.

I was father Christmas walking along and I'm just like stimming the whole way. You know, and no one brought attention to it. My mom never did. She was very unconditional, very loving person. And she's like, Oh, that's just what he does. But I noticed actually, as I got older. It started to play a part in things.

So only a few years ago, two, three years ago, um, I got it for me. It wasn't like I wasn't changing. My brain's always been like this. Um, but it was nice to have the clarification and, and have that moment where it's like, and I'm sure a lot of people listening to your podcast and be like, oh yeah, that childhood makes so much sense.

you know, I don't, I don't, [: 00:35:00

So it's never really been too much um, of a bad thing for me. It definitely contributed to my anxiety disorder because of the stress drug. So when I'm stressed and when anyone's stressed, they want control, don't they? We noticed that you might be one of these people, okay, when you're stressed, you like, get productivity anxiety, so you're like, well, I need to make to do lists, and, and then I can feel sated because I feel like I'm doing things, and, and then you're chasing these to do lists, and then, before you've even completed it, there's another to do list, and you're chasing that, and you're making yourself more stressed.

ge for me to understand that [: 00:36:00

But then go outside. But my brain just goes, what are you on about? And, um, and it just shuts down just like, Oh, it just goes into executive dysfunction, just cause, uh, and I'm being aware of that's really nice because when you're aware of it, you're not so harsh on yourself. So I can say now, sorry, my brain can't handle that now, rather than.

on't work like that anymore. [: 00:37:00

Kate: totally that, you know, when people say, Oh, what do I want the, you know, a label for, or I don't want to give my child a label.

I don't want them to grow up with a label. And I, and I kind of think you're missing the point because to have that awareness and to have that opportunity to remove shame and to remove the what's wrong with me. I think it's like so empowering. I mean, that's my personal take. Uh, some people kind of go, well, I don't really need the diagnosis 'cause I know what my brain's like.

And they, they're not that bothered whether they wanna know if they've got a DHD or autism or both. But for me it was just, I could breathe. I was like,

Josh: Ugh. Absolutely. I'm with, I'm with you on that. And I often have fights with psychotherapists, fellow colleagues about this. I get on my soapbox, you know, like, stop giving everyone labels.

you've reduced everyone into [: 00:38:00

Um, and with the, uh, the autism diagnosis, uh, and things like that, it gave me the tools to understand how my brain works with compassion, as opposed to being like, why can't I do what they're doing? Why can't I do what my brother's doing? Why can't I do what my friends are doing? Why can't I fit in? Why can't I do these tasks?

eed a bit of care to access. [: 00:39:00

Kate: Totally. And I think being neurodivergent, whether I'm, you know, generalizing or not, we have a lot of questions. We're big thinkers. We're deep thinkers.

And to not have answers to questions is, It's really hard to manage and to hold. And for me, I had so many questions and I never had any answers. And so that caused me to just constantly be in self criticism mode and put other people on a pedestal and everyone else is doing so much better or doing things differently.

Why can't I do it? And then the. The kind of the epiphany of the ADHD. I was like, that's why I'm so creative. That's why I have a million ideas. That's why I'm so good at this, that and the other, but that's why I can't read board game instructions and that's why I can't, um, you know, hear people tell me directions, like all these different things that I, for me, it was like, Life changing.

le. And so, yeah, I think to [: 00:40:00

Josh: for. And did you find you were kinder to yourself?

When it makes sense, how much stress does that take off you?

Kate: So much.

Josh: Some of the biggest stresses of when we're an absolute dick to ourselves, probably the,

Kate: yeah, I was in such, um, I was so self critical the whole time. And I just, my poor husband just came and gave me a momo, momo, momo. Why is this person always doing better?

Why can't I stick to something? Why Why do I keep changing my mind? And he didn't have the answers. He was just very supportive, but he got to a point where he was like, you need to get out of this. I was very much in victim mentality and I wasn't empowered. I didn't feel strong. I was hyper focusing and all my negative traits in inverted commas, and I never saw the strengths for what they were and.

egative, like having so many [: 00:41:00

And then, you know, with the psychoeducation, with the understanding, with then going into complete hyper focus of wanting to learn everything I could about ADHD, um, then I was right. I'm not gonna, this is it. I'm changing the way I speak to myself because. I don't want to see my daughters talk to themselves and we've got a whole family of ADHD.

Josh: It's so powerful and it's really nice that, and like that's, and particularly I love it when I hear parents be like, Nah, just because I went through it doesn't mean my, it doesn't mean my, my children have to and I'm going to change things. I love stuff like that. I think it's, that's me being cliche therapist.

that'll change. And there'll [: 00:42:00

Kate: Correct. And you know,

Josh: that's okay. Um, and that's, yeah, again, I love psychoeducation. Really boring on a first date, but I love it. My mates, I'm out of the pub.

My mates, they're like, don't get him started. Oh God, we're all going to yawn ourselves to death.

Kate: You just need to meet that person that goes, This is fascinating. And then it'll be fine. I mean, moving on to the psychoeducation, you've got your website. Is it the school of anxiety? Is that right?

Josh: Schoolofanxiety. com. Uh, it's where I, if you struggle with the anxiety disorders and we'll have to get you on. The Disordered Podcast. We talk about all things panic attacks, OCD, agoraphobia, things like that. Me and my co host Drew, both therapists and previous sufferers of anxiety. There's things on there like my books and stuff, uh, including the Yeah,

Kate: tell us about your book.

t Katie, it's an absolute So [: 00:43:00

And so I wrote, and how does that make you feel, which is obviously a cliche trope phrase from the therapy world that I have never said, never will say. You need a

Kate: badge that says that. Yeah,

Josh: I will not say and how does it make you feel. Um, and it, it takes, it's an insight into what happens behind the door of the therapy room.

So I invite you into the therapy room. We follow four client case studies, obviously heavily anonymized, huge ethical process. Don't throw fruit at me. And, and obviously consent was gained, et cetera, et cetera. And, yeah, we follow four client case studies. Uh, one person struggles with, um, panic attacks, nocturnal panic attacks, and self esteem issues.

And this person [: 00:44:00

It's one of my most listened to podcast episodes. You know,

Kate: interestingly, it's connected to the menopause. I've heard, um, a lot of people talk about driving anxiety being a prominent, um, menopausal symptom.

Josh: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's driving anxiety in my, in my opinion is a form of agoraphobia. Because we're afraid to be overwhelmed by the anxiety behind the wheel.

Because if we get so anxious behind the wheel, we can lose control and the consequences are high, high risk. These people avoid going on the fast lane in the motorway or avoid motorways altogether. They'll avoid certain roads. They don't like seeing traffic lights, etc. It's actually a mild form of agoraphobia.

suddenly look at their Fiat [: 00:45:00

I did a post on my own Instagram last month. I was like, here we go. I'm going to get absolutely slaughtered for mansplaining here. And I, and I put it out there and actually it was received really, really well as I was, made my day. But like, very, it's not surprising. For me, my anxiety disorder started when there's a whole load of cortisol and adrenaline because of stress, trauma, stuff that I mentioned at the start of the episode.

doctors don't explain this, [: 00:46:00

Yes. Things like that. If you, the books talks about a lot of issues. It's not heavy. It's mostly funny. I talk to about my inner thoughts, literally tell you what I'm thinking in the session. And there's little voices in my head and they're all arguing like anxiety, compassion, analytical, critic, irreverence.

They're all arguing around a table, bit like Inside Out. It was inspired by Inside Out, actually. Not seen the second one yet. Um, and when they're all arguing, As I'm working with clients and I show you how both professional and excellent I can be as a therapist and and also how utterly terrible I can be as a therapist just to

Kate: show you

Josh: what therapy is like

Kate: I can't wait to read it.

think what you've got is you [: 00:47:00

And we just need to normalize these conversations and no one wants to feel alone in these, in these thoughts. And I don't know one person that doesn't have. Some form of intrusive thoughts or anxious thoughts or, or concerns or worries. Thank you so much. I'm going to put all the links of your website, your book, podcast, social media, all on the show notes and people can find you there.

I'm sure they know about who you are anyway. No, I don't

Josh: know. Thank you so much. What a really nice, uh, podcast this was. And thank you for having me as a guest. Thanks, Josh.