NEW SERIES! The Power of Psychoeducation: The Key to Understanding Anxiety and ADHD
Welcome back to a brand-new series of The ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast!
This week's guest is Joshua Fletcher (@anxietyjosh), a psychotherapist and author specialising in anxiety.
A former sufferer, Josh uses his platforms and books to provide psychoeducation about anxiety to those who need it. His latest book, And How Does That Make You Feel?, has sold over 12K copies since its release and is an audible bestseller.
On today's ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast, Kate and Josh speak about:
- Josh's disassociation, anxiety and panic disorder
- The power of psychoeducation to help people with anxiety, neurodiversity and mental health issues
- Understanding the role of cortisol and anxiety
- Practical and personalised ways to help our anxiety
- The anxiety/stress jug - talking about the overwhelming emotions of life
- Externalising our thoughts to help release anxiety
- Emotional conservatism, removing shame, asking for help and creating awareness of how our brain works
- Josh's autism diagnosis and how it shows up in daily life
- Josh's book, And How Does That Make You Feel?,
Have a look at some of Kate's workshops and free resources here.
Kate Moryoussef is a women’s ADHD Lifestyle and wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity, and clarity.
Follow the podcast on Instagram here.
Follow Kate on Instagram here.
Find Kate's resources on ADDitude magazine here.
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Kate Moore Youssef:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Kate Moore Youssef:Here's today's episode so hi everyone, welcome back to a new season of the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's been a little while.
Kate Moore Youssef:I've taken some time off over the summer.
Kate Moore Youssef:You may have been hearing all the mash up episodes which I absolutely love bringing to you because there is so much content and amazing resources on the podcast and the conversations.
Kate Moore Youssef:If you listen to them two or three times, you'll always glean something new.
Kate Moore Youssef:And today we have a brand new guest.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm absolutely delighted to have this guest on, but first I just wanted to let you know that the Toolkit, the subscription version of the podcast, is now launched.
Kate Moore Youssef:So if you're listening on Apple, this is where it's available.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I have created the Toolkit as a supplementary and additional podcast to really help you dive into the more intricate parts of your adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:To help you to get that support.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm basically opening up this vault.
Kate Moore Youssef:I keep saying the word vault because I don't know how else to describe it.
Kate Moore Youssef:Of all the content that I've been creating over the past few years.
Kate Moore Youssef:So this is workshops, extra interviews, webinars, coaching sessions, I'm bringing it all to you for such a fraction of the cost that it normally would be.
Kate Moore Youssef:Because I desperately believe that more people need to gain access to this help for adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:Especially if you are on a waiting list.
Kate Moore Youssef:The amount of people that message me and say I can't go private, it's not possible for me and I'm on this three or four year waiting list and that is not okay.
Kate Moore Youssef:That is not okay for people to gain an understanding and an awareness and validation and help and guidance to making small manageable changes.
Kate Moore Youssef:Now, it's not to replace medication.
Kate Moore Youssef:We need to get that straight because unfortunately with adhd, medication can be vital.
Kate Moore Youssef:And if you are waiting for medication, I am sending you all my love and I wish that the system was different.
Kate Moore Youssef:But right now, if you are waiting and you are just wanting someone to hold your hand, someone to give you some ideas, some ways that you can tweak and change your lifestyle.
Kate Moore Youssef:So if you are listening on Apple podcasts, it's literally the price of sandwich per month, a coffee, whatever you want to look at it, or you can pay a full year subscription and it's slightly less.
Kate Moore Youssef:Give yourself a free trial.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's two weeks and I hope that the content that's being uploaded in that two weeks that you can listen, you'll realize how helpful it is and you'll carry on listening.
Kate Moore Youssef:And by all means, please tell me, tell me what you want to hear as well.
Kate Moore Youssef:So today's guest is Joshua Fletcher.
Kate Moore Youssef:He's Anxiety Josh on TikTok on Instagram.
Kate Moore Youssef:He's a psychotherapist and he's an author and he uses his platforms and books to provide psychoeducation about anxiety.
Kate Moore Youssef:And he has got an amazing book that's just been out called how does that make you feel?
Kate Moore Youssef:And it's sold thousands of copies.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I really hope that you enjoy today's conversation.
Kate Moore Youssef:Here it is.
Kate Moore Youssef:Josh Fletcher.
Kate Moore Youssef:Hi.
Joshua Fletcher:Okay, yeah, thanks for having me on.
Joshua Fletcher:I've been looking forward to this.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I'm excited because we're actually just down the road from each other.
Kate Moore Youssef:I literally interview people from all around the world and you are just down the road in Manchester.
Kate Moore Youssef:So it's lovely to talk to you.
Kate Moore Youssef:We probably could have done this in person, but never mind.
Kate Moore Youssef:We'll do it as I have to with all my other guests and just rely on tech.
Kate Moore Youssef:But thank you.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm really looking forward to talking to you about your perspective on anxiety and how you help people in your unique way, which is like really fresh.
Kate Moore Youssef:And been watching your social media videos.
Kate Moore Youssef:I know your book has been incredibly popular, but I was just wondering if we could go back a little bit, you know, further and maybe talk about your own experience.
Kate Moore Youssef:I know that you've gone through anxiety yourself in different capacities.
Kate Moore Youssef:Could you perhaps just share with us a little bit about your background?
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah, sure.
Joshua Fletcher:So I grew up near in Greater Manchester.
Joshua Fletcher:I always wanted to be a primary school teacher.
Joshua Fletcher:It was like the dream of mine.
Joshua Fletcher:After I finished my undergrad, I went through a very stressful time in my life.
Joshua Fletcher:Obviously finished uni, I was broke, going through a lot of stress, went through a breakup, moved back to Greater Manchester, trying to find a job, trying to get out of debt.
Joshua Fletcher:I moved back in with my mom and my little brother.
Joshua Fletcher:And unfortunately at the time my younger brother became very unwell, so that added to the pile of stress I had then.
Joshua Fletcher:I wanted to keep working, though, as well as being his primary carer, because, you know, you need money to pay for bread.
Joshua Fletcher:And, yes, I went to work in a pupil referral unit, which is one of the most fit, my favorite jobs ever.
Joshua Fletcher:Lots of anxious kids.
Joshua Fletcher:And if you're not sure what pupil referral unit is, it's for where children go when they can't access mainstream education due to their behavior or various reasons.
Joshua Fletcher:When I was there, all the stress built up and it built up, and it built up and it built up.
Joshua Fletcher:And one morning I dissociated.
Joshua Fletcher:Now, if anyone, is very prevalent with people with ADHD and people who struggle with anxiety and stress.
Joshua Fletcher:One morning I just made a cup of tea.
Joshua Fletcher:I looked up and the whole room looked weird.
Joshua Fletcher:I felt weird.
Joshua Fletcher:I was like, oh, my God, what's going on here?
Joshua Fletcher:People's faces looked like clay.
Joshua Fletcher:I could hear my voice, but didn't feel like me.
Joshua Fletcher:I experienced something very frightening, followed by a panic attack.
Joshua Fletcher:Then subsequently, I went home, because that's what you do.
Joshua Fletcher:Thought not very well.
Joshua Fletcher:And then I developed agoraphobia.
Joshua Fletcher:Couldn't leave the house for six months, Became very unwell with what I now know was the start of an anxiety disorder.
Joshua Fletcher:I feel like I didn't have the appropriate help from the doctor.
Joshua Fletcher:Can you imagine now going to the doctor and being like, hi, Doctor, I feel like I'm in the Matrix.
Joshua Fletcher:You look weird.
Joshua Fletcher:What's going on?
Joshua Fletcher:I can hear my own voice.
Joshua Fletcher:Very hard to describe what I now know as dissociation.
Joshua Fletcher:I subsequently struggled with panic attacks and feared those panic attacks I would shape my life around not having panic attacks, which doesn't work.
Joshua Fletcher:And it was a grim place to be in.
Joshua Fletcher:I didn't feel like I had the right help until I did find some help.
Joshua Fletcher:The works from of Dr.
Joshua Fletcher:Claire Weeks, who's my hero?
Joshua Fletcher:Then more modern therapists and doctors who write about anxiety disorders.
Joshua Fletcher:So then I thought, I'm so passionate about anxiety and learning about it, but I also love teaching thought.
Joshua Fletcher:What's the best profession to do?
Joshua Fletcher:So I combined them both and did my masters and more subsequent training, become a psychotherapist.
Joshua Fletcher:Then at the start of COVID my mate said, everyone's losing their minds.
Joshua Fletcher:Why don't you start an Instagram page about anxiety with helpful content?
Joshua Fletcher:I was like, all right.
Joshua Fletcher:And then it went from there.
Joshua Fletcher:And then my Instagram page exploded.
Joshua Fletcher:And I write books about it, et cetera, but Yeah, I mean, that's a bit about where I came from and why I do what I do.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm really passionate about helping people with anxiety feel seen.
Kate Moore Youssef:Wow.
Kate Moore Youssef:Okay.
Kate Moore Youssef:Thank you so much for sharing that.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, what were the tools that you found the most helpful for yourself.
Joshua Fletcher:For me, is psychoeducation.
Joshua Fletcher:Psychoeducation saved my life.
Joshua Fletcher:It's learning what was happening in my brain and how my brain worked because I felt weird.
Joshua Fletcher:I felt like no one got me.
Joshua Fletcher:I didn't understand these intrusive thoughts I was having.
Joshua Fletcher:I didn't understand these waves of fear and fright, didn't understand dissociation, why that was happening.
Joshua Fletcher:My heart racing, skipping beats, the need to run out of places that weren't dangerous.
Joshua Fletcher:But I felt unsafe.
Joshua Fletcher:Why my brain fixated.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm a fixator.
Joshua Fletcher:As someone who's a high functioning autistic, I didn't understand what saved my life was being able to acknowledge what my brain and body were doing and then ultimately one, leave it alone or to put in a behavior to help calm me down, to stop fueling the anxiety.
Joshua Fletcher:Anxiety is a very broad topic and each person's anxiety presents differently.
Joshua Fletcher:And for me, it was really helpful to identify that I was a fixator.
Joshua Fletcher:So if I had panic attacks, I'd fixate on them.
Joshua Fletcher:If I had an intrusive thought, I'd fixate on them.
Joshua Fletcher:If I worried about what someone thought about me, I'd fixate on it.
Joshua Fletcher:Don't get me wrong, being a fixator is cool.
Joshua Fletcher:If you fixate on productive stuff, then, you know, great things happen.
Joshua Fletcher:If I fixate on work projects, whatever.
Joshua Fletcher:But that fixation part of my personality was really, really helpful to identify because I can label it and step back.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, when you say about fixator, I'm sort of thinking about like the hyper focus element of adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:Of yeah, and really kind of like having those things where we hyper focus.
Kate Moore Youssef:But when you say about fixating it is.
Kate Moore Youssef:I do see that more in like the anxiety sense.
Kate Moore Youssef:You mentioned autism and we know that with neurodivergence, adhd, autism, there's a much higher propensity for anxiety.
Kate Moore Youssef:I don't know one person that I've worked with and part of my community who hasn't had some form of anxiety or an anxiety disorder, whether, however that shows up.
Kate Moore Youssef:And like you say, it shows up so differently for many of us and I know that there's so many people listening here that may have been diagnosed with anxiety and the neurodivergence has come decades later.
Kate Moore Youssef:So they've been sort of given anxiety tools, practice or maybe they haven't, they've been medicated and they just know that there's something else beneath the surface.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we know now with ADHD that it's the internalized, the restlessness, the mind, the nonstop thinking, the ruminating, the overthinking, the catastrophizing, all of that, that really kind of helps kickstarts that anxiety and we spiral with it.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so when you talk about psychoeducation, for me as well, that was the biggest thing.
Kate Moore Youssef:I was like, oh, okay, so I'm diagnosed with adhd.
Kate Moore Youssef:I now understand about my wiring in my brain.
Kate Moore Youssef:I understand that this is happening for me, this is why it's different, this is why I'm more prone to anxiety and hypervigilance and all things like that.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I then was able to distance myself from thinking it was all about my personality.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I just, if I just powered through, if I just tried something different, if I just did something better and that again, the understanding, the awareness, the recognition has been so powerful.
Kate Moore Youssef:But if someone's sort of thinking, what psychoeducation, can you break that down a little bit?
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah, sure.
Joshua Fletcher:So I mean when we look at psychoeducation, we look at what anxiety is.
Joshua Fletcher:Anxiety is the brain's threat response, the almond.
Joshua Fletcher:In our brain called the amygdala.
Joshua Fletcher:Everyone has one.
Joshua Fletcher:Whether you're neurotypical, neurodivergent, whether you're a mammal.
Joshua Fletcher:We have the amygdala.
Joshua Fletcher:It's the fastest, oldest, but not the smartest part of our brains and it will fire off either when it detects threat or it will fire off in response to accumulated stress.
Joshua Fletcher:For a lot of people that accumulated stress could be over a long period of time.
Joshua Fletcher:So if you're someone with ADHD who hasn't known and has tried to conform and live in a very heteronormative society whilst being neurodivergent, that's going to add to your stress.
Joshua Fletcher:When you go just going through general life stress, family stuff, relationships, work, grief, chronic illness, things like that, that all builds up.
Joshua Fletcher:Maybe there's self esteem issues about your identity, what it is to be valued.
Joshua Fletcher:You mentioned a bit, hinted a bit about productivity anxiety, where you're constantly driven.
Joshua Fletcher:I have to keep doing stuff because if I don't, if I keep still, I feel guilty, etc, etc.
Joshua Fletcher:But what happens is this oldest part of our brain, which isn't linked two ways to our thinking brain, tries to look after us like an overprotective parent.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, it's kicked in.
Joshua Fletcher:And when stress has got too high, when you have panic attacks, often people say, oh, I had a panic attack from nowhere.
Joshua Fletcher:No, usually when I sit down, my clients, my practice, I say, well, tell me what's happened in the last month.
Joshua Fletcher:And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe that was coming when terms of psychoeducation.
Joshua Fletcher:It was really helpful for me to understand that the amygdala is something that fires off out of my control in the short term anyway, and it fired off for me because of accumulated stress.
Joshua Fletcher:So it floods my body with adrenaline and cortisol and hijacks my attention to bring my attention to potential threats.
Joshua Fletcher:So suddenly I'm in ASDA trying to buy my beans and my bread, and now everything looks weird.
Joshua Fletcher:The lights are brighter, my peripheral vision is shut down, my heart's racing, I'm dissociating and I feel really scared, like something awful is about to happen.
Joshua Fletcher:And that's because the amygdala's kicked in and flooded me with loads of adrenaline and cortisol.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, it's.
Joshua Fletcher:The psychoeducation is really helpful.
Joshua Fletcher:I used to struggle really badly with morning anxiety and rumination.
Joshua Fletcher:The body needs cortisol to wake up, but cortisol is a primary component of anxiety.
Joshua Fletcher:So if you're someone who wakes up with that feeling of doom and dread and you lie in bed ruminating, try not to just get up, honestly, get up, put your shoes on.
Joshua Fletcher:Honestly, do not ruminate through that lens because it's cortisol.
Joshua Fletcher:It makes you feel icky and horrid.
Joshua Fletcher:And this doom feeling for someone who struggles with pmdd, perimenopause and menopause, you know, rather than having those lovely balancing hormones of progesterone and estrogen, the body's like, best I can do is cortisol and just gives you loads of cortisol instead.
Joshua Fletcher:So, you know, if you wonder why you feel like, awful during these times, it's because of that cortisol chemical.
Joshua Fletcher:Just understanding why you feel the way you do, you know, and understanding it's actually okay.
Joshua Fletcher:Your body can handle it.
Joshua Fletcher:It's.
Joshua Fletcher:It's there.
Joshua Fletcher:The natural occurring things happen in your body.
Joshua Fletcher:But trying not to fear and misinterpret it is one of the cornerstones of my practice.
Joshua Fletcher:And it was really helpful for me too, honestly, with.
Joshua Fletcher:When I struggle with panic attacks.
Joshua Fletcher:I was diagnosed with OCD as well.
Joshua Fletcher:It would feel very important to give this potential threat, whether it's a thought or a feeling or something or a situation, attention and what I learned was to do the opposite whilst feeling like rubbish, to rewire my brain.
Joshua Fletcher:And I managed to get to a really good place, live a very happy, content life now.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
Kate Moore Youssef:Because that power of understanding and the labeling and then saying, okay, this is what's going on neurologically.
Kate Moore Youssef:We're understanding the amygdala, we understand what's happening with our hormones and the cortisol and the adrenaline and all of that.
Kate Moore Youssef:What that does to our body in the sense sensations in our body, that in itself is sort of taking us out of our kind of like, oh my God, what's going on?
Kate Moore Youssef:And kind of like going into that even further down that anxiety, that spiral and getting back into our body.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I find a very helpful tip is to, for myself is to almost talk to the anxiety, talk to the situation and say to myself, like, okay, I can.
Kate Moore Youssef:You can feel that this is happening.
Kate Moore Youssef:You can feel that it's brewing, the sensations in your body, and really sort of almost distance myself from the flood, I would say, and help myself kind of almost talk myself through the situation.
Kate Moore Youssef:And that has been really helpful for me.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I spoke to Dr.
Kate Moore Youssef:Russell Ramsey and he said this, that it is a psychological term called distance self talk, which I found really validating.
Kate Moore Youssef:I shared on my Instagram and so many people said that they've been struggling with anxiety all their life.
Kate Moore Youssef:They said, I've actually just been doing that intuitively.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like, I've realized that if I talk to myself in the third third person and kind of like almost taught to myself, like a friend would talk to myself, it really helps.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so I think it validated for a lot of people that although if we're out in a public situation with outwardly talking to ourselves, it does look a bit strange, but it can be, it can be very helpful.
Joshua Fletcher:Would you.
Kate Moore Youssef:Do you have any tips about something like that?
Kate Moore Youssef:If someone is in the supermarket and they do feel that panic rising, is there anything that you can help with?
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah, I mean, listen, if something works for you, you do that.
Joshua Fletcher:I think it's really cool.
Joshua Fletcher:I often speak to myself to give myself a pep talk, maybe to give myself some encouragements and compassionate pats on the back and encourage that.
Joshua Fletcher:It depends again what your anxiety is.
Joshua Fletcher:If you're someone who fears anxiety and you're someone who, as soon as it arises, you want to get rid of it, sometimes you've got to be quite aware of the intention behind why you're talking to your anxiety.
Joshua Fletcher:If you're trying to talk to Anxiety to get rid of it, you can end up in compulsion territory.
Joshua Fletcher:Which one in five of us will have compulsions to get rid of horrible feelings, me included.
Joshua Fletcher:And so for me, actually talking to me and my anxiety, don't get me wrong, encouraging myself definitely works.
Joshua Fletcher:Talking to my anxiety, it actually didn't work for me.
Joshua Fletcher:It actually made me feel more anxious because I techniqueified it.
Joshua Fletcher:I was like, well I'm telling myself I'm brave and I'm doing this and the anxiety is not needed and I'm safe and I'm breathing and I've stopped and I've done my belly breathing and I've done my visualization.
Joshua Fletcher:Why do I feel 10 times worse?
Joshua Fletcher:Because I feared and misinterpreted the anxious response itself.
Joshua Fletcher:I actually stopped.
Joshua Fletcher:I was safe and I wasn't showing the brain, particularly the amygdala, that this situation is safe because I stopped.
Joshua Fletcher:I stopped and gave it my attention.
Joshua Fletcher:And I did this for years.
Joshua Fletcher:And so for me, what I would do is say would use positive self talk, but I'd frame it in the sense of, yeah, I'm going to feel uncertain right now.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm not going to speak to my threat response to the amygdala because it isn't wired that way.
Joshua Fletcher:Interestingly, to your thinking brain the amygdala is a one way street.
Joshua Fletcher:So there's one telephone line from the amygdala to your thinking brain but there isn't one going back.
Joshua Fletcher:So you can talk to your amygdala all you want.
Joshua Fletcher:Shout at it, scream at it, compliment it, ask it out on a date, it ain't listening because it's not wired that way.
Joshua Fletcher:So you know, I hear a lot of tell the anxiety that it's not needed, it's not listening, it's got you on mute.
Joshua Fletcher:But what you can do is show it and talk to yourself.
Joshua Fletcher:So for me, when I was doing exposure therapy for agoraphobia or intrusive thoughts, I remember not long after that time I said at the start of the episode was I needed to get back out there, I needed to look after my brother, but I couldn't even leave the house.
Joshua Fletcher:So for me it was going to the local shop.
Joshua Fletcher:And where I did use self talk was like, okay, right, amygdala's fired off, I've got a load of adrenaline and cortisol, I feel really scared, I feel dizzy, I feel sensitive to light, feel like I'm gonna have a heart attack, collapse, faint, feel like I'm gonna go crazy.
Joshua Fletcher:That was my favorite One, you're gonna go crazy.
Joshua Fletcher:And then I would say to myself, no, Josh, you know what this is?
Joshua Fletcher:You know exactly what this is.
Joshua Fletcher:This is normal.
Joshua Fletcher:This is.
Joshua Fletcher:Okay, yes, things feel in Congress because you're in Tesco express feeling like there's a gun to your head.
Joshua Fletcher:But actually this is very physiologically o you can do this, you can be brave and ride it out because the body could only has a finite amount of adrenaline and cortisol.
Joshua Fletcher:So, you know, call it bluff.
Joshua Fletcher:And then I would go in and get my five items.
Joshua Fletcher:It would take me forever because one, I can't concentrate and two, I'm feeling scared and want to escape, but slowly doing that.
Joshua Fletcher:And same applies to my intrusive thoughts, just riding it out, not talking to it, not engaging in safety compulsions and slowly started to rewire my brain so now I can do normal things again and exist.
Joshua Fletcher:So, yeah, I say to people, it's usually everyone experiences anxiety, find what works for you.
Joshua Fletcher:But if you are in that realm of anxiety where you struggle with intrusive thoughts, panic attacks, excessive anxiety, don't be disheartened.
Joshua Fletcher:If one thing that works for someone else doesn't work for you, you will find something that will work for you.
Kate Moore Youssef:I think what you're sharing is really powerful for so many people because like you say, you're labeling these things and you're, you know, like you said, some tools and practices just don't work for certain people and some do.
Kate Moore Youssef:And, you know, that's why it's so personalized, I think, individualized, this approach that we have to kind of recognize that people have different anxieties for different things and there's going to be different approaches.
Kate Moore Youssef:What are your thoughts then of combining the psychoeducation alongside the medication, lifestyle changes and tweaks?
Kate Moore Youssef:Like we can do all the self talk and all of that, but actually sometimes we need extra scaffolding.
Kate Moore Youssef:What's your approach when you're helping people?
Joshua Fletcher:Ah, that's a great question.
Joshua Fletcher:Obviously, medication stuff, you gotta make sure you have a nice relationship with your psychiatrist, gp, health team to get the dose right.
Joshua Fletcher:My approach as a therapist, so I've seen, I work with a lot of people who have adhd, who have anxiety, who come to me with a multitude of things.
Joshua Fletcher:ADHD is just part of all the stuff that they've been through.
Joshua Fletcher:I use the old metaphor of the stress jog.
Joshua Fletcher:It's not new, it's not original, but I like it.
Joshua Fletcher:And in my practice, my aim is to we identify what's in the stress Jug.
Joshua Fletcher:So immediately.
Joshua Fletcher:And I got huge whiteboard in my practice and you know, once a teacher, always teacher, draw the big receptacle of your choice.
Joshua Fletcher:I had a client the other day, it said, can you draw a carafe?
Joshua Fletcher:I was like, okay, and we'll draw a carafe on the whiteboard.
Joshua Fletcher:And I said, let's find out what's in this stress jug.
Joshua Fletcher:And so we started with everyday worries, you know, like work, money, family, relationships, health, the world burning, etc.
Joshua Fletcher:And then we put other things in there like grief, adhd, autism and anxiety disorder itself.
Joshua Fletcher:The fear of fear, stress, horrible work colleagues.
Joshua Fletcher:Maybe mommy and daddy weren't very nice and we have some horrible resentment built up towards them.
Joshua Fletcher:Maybe we've been through traumatic stuff, you know, being on the receiving end of horrible things that goes in the stress jug.
Joshua Fletcher:Everyday stuff, politics, elections, I forgot to put the bins out.
Joshua Fletcher:Environmental issues.
Joshua Fletcher:That goes in there too.
Joshua Fletcher:And other things about your identity, self esteem.
Joshua Fletcher:How do you value yourself as a person?
Joshua Fletcher:Well, I only have value when I look a certain way, I've achieved a certain thing, I come and people accept me, etc, etc.
Joshua Fletcher:Well, that goes in there too.
Joshua Fletcher:And by now we filled the carafe, the stress jug.
Joshua Fletcher:I believe that when the stress jug's overflowing, excessive anxiety and anxiety disorders thrive because the amygdala trying to protect us doesn't understand all these subjective stresses.
Joshua Fletcher:It doesn't understand your work emails, it doesn't understand why you had an argument with your sister, doesn't understand why you're fretting over your social media presence.
Joshua Fletcher:It doesn't understand that because it's the oldest part of our brain, doesn't understand he's trying to look after us, doesn't understand why we're stressed.
Joshua Fletcher:So what I do and what my approach is is that we empty as much of the stress drug as we can.
Joshua Fletcher:Now, there are things in the immediate short term that we can do.
Joshua Fletcher:So I said, well, what can we work on?
Joshua Fletcher:What can we empty now?
Joshua Fletcher:Well, I want to get my ADHD sorted.
Joshua Fletcher:Well, maybe not, you know, that's going to be part of you.
Joshua Fletcher:It's how your brain works, similar to me, but we can empty a bit of that out of how we manage the ad.
Joshua Fletcher:I want to talk about grief.
Joshua Fletcher:Brilliant.
Joshua Fletcher:Can we, let's empty some grief out there.
Joshua Fletcher:We're never going to get rid of all of grief, never.
Joshua Fletcher:But the cumbersome grief we can.
Joshua Fletcher:I want to talk about me as my identity, I want to talk about my failed marriage, I want to talk about my friend who's annoying me.
Joshua Fletcher:I want to talk about the world, whatever.
Joshua Fletcher:Okay.
Joshua Fletcher:And talking helps empty out the stress jug.
Joshua Fletcher:I want to talk about my anxiety and my fear of anxiety and intrusive thoughts.
Joshua Fletcher:Okay, well, here's some psychoeducation.
Joshua Fletcher:Does that turn the anxiety off?
Joshua Fletcher:No.
Joshua Fletcher:Does understanding it help?
Joshua Fletcher:Actually, yeah.
Joshua Fletcher:And now we've emptied half the stress jug out.
Joshua Fletcher:Wow.
Joshua Fletcher:Okay.
Joshua Fletcher:Have we applied perfectionistic traits and tried to get rid of everything in the stress jug?
Joshua Fletcher:No.
Joshua Fletcher:And no one's got that.
Joshua Fletcher:No one on the planet can empty out their stress jug.
Joshua Fletcher:And the perfectionists really struggle with this one.
Joshua Fletcher:But what we do is we try and make it as light as possible.
Joshua Fletcher:And that's what I do.
Joshua Fletcher:And I think that's where psychoeducation helps.
Joshua Fletcher:It's like understanding what's happening to your body eases the burden.
Joshua Fletcher:Understanding when your stress drug is overflowing that you may go into shutdown mode if you're struggling someone struggle with adhd, the traits that come with that may exacerbate probably will do.
Joshua Fletcher:I know when I'm super stressed, my sensory overload is a big warning sign for me.
Joshua Fletcher:It's like, wow, why is that supermarket light burning my retinas?
Joshua Fletcher:And certain sounds are really difficult for me to process.
Joshua Fletcher:And that's what I do.
Joshua Fletcher:That's the cornerstone of what I do.
Joshua Fletcher:There's no one thing or approach.
Joshua Fletcher:We just.
Joshua Fletcher:As a therapist, I try to work through and empty it as best I can.
Kate Moore Youssef:I think that the power of externalizing isn't it?
Kate Moore Youssef:And you know, for those of us lucky enough to be able to have like one to one therapy, it.
Kate Moore Youssef:It really is so powerful.
Kate Moore Youssef:Coaching therapy, journaling can be really helpful.
Kate Moore Youssef:Being able to sit down and just have a couple of prompts of like, what's in my stress jug today?
Kate Moore Youssef:Like what, what is really there?
Kate Moore Youssef:What's the most prominent thing right now?
Kate Moore Youssef:And just journaling that out and that, that, that feeling of like releasing certain things, but also the acceptance, isn't it.
Kate Moore Youssef:Of life is pretty stressful at the moment.
Kate Moore Youssef:There are a lot of big things in the world that we have gone through and we're going through and all the external stuff that we can't control and there's so many uncontrollables.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I think with anxiety we like to have some control.
Kate Moore Youssef:We like to be able to know.
Kate Moore Youssef:And the perfectionism that you're talking about can be very overbearing sometimes.
Kate Moore Youssef:And when there's things externally that we just can't control, maybe just recognizing that and saying, yes, politics right now is really scary.
Kate Moore Youssef:The world events right now are really not good.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've just gone through a pandemic and we're still in the sort of the after effects of it.
Kate Moore Youssef:And you know, a pandemic.
Kate Moore Youssef:Who would have thought we would have ever gone through this and gone through, you know, and we've still got these tremors that are happening four or five years later.
Kate Moore Youssef:And you know, I'm going to speak to the women especially who listen to this podcast.
Kate Moore Youssef:I think we are holding more than we've ever held before.
Kate Moore Youssef:On the flip side, we're getting the more awareness and the more support than we've ever had before.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, menopause 15, 20 years ago was never discussed.
Kate Moore Youssef:It was a taboo, it was a stigmatized conversation that maybe you sort of had a quick mutter with another friend.
Kate Moore Youssef:But now we're understanding the signs of perimenopause.
Kate Moore Youssef:We're able to understand, like you say with the psycho education makes sense, understand our health, understand those connections.
Kate Moore Youssef:We're now understanding this with this increased awareness of ADHD later on in life.
Kate Moore Youssef:And for women, like you said before, it's been so genderized with, you know, boys and men just being diagnosed with adhd and for us just having no clue, no understanding about why we do certain things and the masking and the hiding, it's all been so exhausting.
Kate Moore Youssef:So I think we are in this sort of precipice of mental health, especially for women, of recognizing that we are holding a lot and that life feels a lot.
Kate Moore Youssef:But also actually we have, we're starting to get, have resources and we're having tools and support and conversations and women wanting to empower each other.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we've got groups and I want to come towards, you know, we've worked on the psychological tools.
Kate Moore Youssef:We've understood that therapy, medication can be incredibly helpful for ourselves in that respect.
Kate Moore Youssef:But from a lifestyle perspective, for anxiety, it is quite a big all encompassing approach, isn't it, to anxiety?
Kate Moore Youssef:It's not just what we've talked about.
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah, multifaceted and finding out what works for you.
Joshua Fletcher:Exercise is really important for my mood.
Joshua Fletcher:I don't exercise to get rid of anxiety.
Joshua Fletcher:I exercise to put myself in a better mood.
Joshua Fletcher:So if I do get anxious, I'm all right, I can handle this okay.
Joshua Fletcher:I've got a better foundation to build upon.
Joshua Fletcher:I think one of the big ones that I forgot to mention, which is a barrier for people trying to get better or to feel better in themselves, to accept themselves, is one called emotional conservatism.
Joshua Fletcher:Now, often it's associated with men, but in my experience, it's not.
Joshua Fletcher:Particularly in the neurodivergent community.
Joshua Fletcher:It's not.
Joshua Fletcher:It's a lot of emotional conservatism is when we revere not showing our emotions or not showing vulnerabilities, you know, for fear of being judged.
Joshua Fletcher:Or perhaps we see the ability to hide emotions as strength.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, the cliche is men is a man doing it.
Joshua Fletcher:But I see a lot happening with women as well because of the shame.
Joshua Fletcher:You mentioned before there about, you know, talking about the menopause 20 years ago wasn't even considered, and still now people are quite ashamed to talk about it.
Joshua Fletcher:I hear about it in my practice.
Joshua Fletcher:Very honored when people open up to me, particularly as a dude about it.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, I'm like, yeah.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm like, cool, let's talk about it.
Joshua Fletcher:So it has to happen.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, it's a very human thing, just being able to not be ashamed of who you are, being accepting of who you are.
Joshua Fletcher:It's something I've comes with only recently, to be honest.
Joshua Fletcher:I did a talk the other day in London and, you know, I'm autistic, and one of my stims is to wave my hand around like a seal.
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher:And I was just like.
Joshua Fletcher:And I was just flapping my hand around, and then I was like, if you're wondering what I'm doing, that's just what I do.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, I'm not.
Joshua Fletcher:It's just what I do when I'm.
Joshua Fletcher:When I have emotions, you know, it was nice to unmask in that way.
Joshua Fletcher:I also have.
Joshua Fletcher:There's a few stims I won't do.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm not very uncomfortable to do that.
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher:But like.
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah, in general, it's like, I'm not ashamed of who I am.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm not trying to conform, push myself into a norm for people anymore.
Joshua Fletcher:And it really helped.
Joshua Fletcher:I think the esteem thing as well is.
Joshua Fletcher:So.
Joshua Fletcher:It lightens the load, empties the jug a lot.
Joshua Fletcher:I don't mind if I'm anxious in front of people anymore.
Joshua Fletcher:Thankfully, I don't get that anxious anymore.
Joshua Fletcher:But if I am, I don't care.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm not ashamed of it.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, it's the thing that we all get.
Joshua Fletcher:And I don't mind asking for help.
Joshua Fletcher:I don't see any shame in asking for help.
Joshua Fletcher:I think a lot of people, particularly in the neurodivergent community, as a reaction to always feeling like the outsider and not feeling part of things is to do the opposite to become hyper independent.
Joshua Fletcher:Look, I can do it.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm hyper independent.
Joshua Fletcher:I will show you this and this and that.
Joshua Fletcher:For me I was the same.
Joshua Fletcher:But then it was like, actually no, this is a humility and a gift and to ask for help and tell people what I need, should I need it.
Joshua Fletcher:So yeah, I just wanted to talk a bit about that emotional conservatism side of things.
Joshua Fletcher:It's okay, don't get me wrong.
Joshua Fletcher:Don't go to your mate's birthday party and start crying on the cake and making all about you.
Joshua Fletcher:But what I'm saying is it's okay to convey what you need.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I think that's really powerful.
Kate Moore Youssef:First of all, I've never heard of that terminology before, so thank you.
Joshua Fletcher:I made it up, Kate.
Joshua Fletcher:Modern day Shakespeare down the road here in Old Trafford.
Joshua Fletcher:Also fixator.
Joshua Fletcher:Fixator isn't a word.
Joshua Fletcher:I made that up.
Joshua Fletcher:So there's going to be all these terms and I was like, who's this?
Kate Moore Youssef:Absolutely, you can tell me anything.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'll be like, yeah, you're a psychotherapist.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'll just.
Kate Moore Youssef:But it's, you know, especially with you, you've got a big social media following, you're a young guy and you are modeling to a lot of other.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm going to speak to men mostly that who have kind of like found it hard to show their emotions and talk about their emotions.
Kate Moore Youssef:Just to articulate, just to be able to say this is what I'm feeling and to be able to actually convey their emotions.
Kate Moore Youssef:I know so many men who have been so shut down that to talk about their emotions, it's just, they just don't have the language for it.
Kate Moore Youssef:So what you're doing on social media is incredible and we need more men to be in touch with their emotions, to be able to talk.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I wanted to ask you about your autism diagnosis and how old you were when you got that, how you felt and did it help connect dots for you or was it just sort of like a by the by diagnosis?
Joshua Fletcher:I've always been feel different and stuff.
Joshua Fletcher:I remember watching a video of me in the school play as a kid.
Joshua Fletcher:I was Father Christmas walking along and I just think stimming the whole way, you know.
Joshua Fletcher:And no one brought attention to it.
Joshua Fletcher:My mum never did.
Joshua Fletcher:She was very unconditional, very loving person and she's like, that's just what he does.
Joshua Fletcher:But I noticed actually as I got older it started to play apart and things.
Joshua Fletcher:It's only a few years ago, two, three years ago that I got it.
Joshua Fletcher:For me, it wasn't like it wasn't changing.
Joshua Fletcher:My brain's always been like this.
Joshua Fletcher:But it was nice to have the clarification and have that moment where it's like.
Joshua Fletcher:And I'm sure a lot of people listening to your podcast would be like, oh yeah, that childhood makes so much sense.
Joshua Fletcher:It's like, wow, totally.
Joshua Fletcher:Let's just how my brain's been, you know, I don't.
Joshua Fletcher:It's high functioning.
Joshua Fletcher:In terms of high functioning being the measure by what society means deems to be functioning.
Joshua Fletcher:But in terms of like social accessing, conventional work hours, things like that, I would say I was high functioning.
Joshua Fletcher:So it's never really been too much of a bad thing for me.
Joshua Fletcher:It definitely contributed to my anxiety disorder because of the stress joke.
Joshua Fletcher:So when I'm stressed and when anyone's stressed, they want control, don't they?
Joshua Fletcher:Have you noticed that you might be one of these people when you're stressed?
Joshua Fletcher:You like get productivity anxiety.
Joshua Fletcher:So you're like, well, I need to make to do lists.
Joshua Fletcher:And, and then I can feel sated because I feel like I'm doing things.
Joshua Fletcher:And then you're chasing these to do lists.
Joshua Fletcher:And then before you even completed it, there's another to do list and you're chasing that and you're making yourself more stressed.
Joshua Fletcher:I used to do that and it used to make me more stressed and make my stress drug overflow again.
Joshua Fletcher:It was all part of the package for me to understand that my brain works this way, particularly with panoramic sounds, sensory stuff sequencing.
Joshua Fletcher:When I'm super stressed and the jog is full, three people are talking at me or around me or if I've got multiple sounds around me.
Joshua Fletcher:My stress stroke fills up very quickly if someone gives me non sequenced instructions.
Joshua Fletcher:So like, can you go outside and put this in the bin?
Joshua Fletcher:But before you do that, can you actually clean the banister whilst also doing that, but then go outside?
Joshua Fletcher:But my brain just goes, what are you on about?
Joshua Fletcher:And.
Joshua Fletcher:And it just shuts down.
Joshua Fletcher:It's like, oh, it just goes into executive dysfunction.
Joshua Fletcher:Just go.
Joshua Fletcher:And being aware of that's really nice because when you're aware of it, you're not so harsh on yourself.
Joshua Fletcher:So I can say now, sorry, my brain can't handle that now.
Joshua Fletcher:Rather than shaming myself or getting more anxious and stressed because I was comparing myself to others, just be like, I just, I'm happy to say to myself, now listen, my brain don't work like that anymore.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, you're gonna have to go easy and with no shame.
Joshua Fletcher:And actually it saves me so much stress.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, totally.
Kate Moore Youssef:That, you know when people say, oh, what do I want, you know, a label for?
Kate Moore Youssef:Or I don't want to give my child a label.
Kate Moore Youssef:I don't want them to grow up with a label.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I kind of think you're missing the point.
Kate Moore Youssef:Because to have that awareness and to have that opportunity to remove shame and to remove the what's wrong with me?
Kate Moore Youssef:I think it's like, so empowering.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, that's my personal take.
Kate Moore Youssef:Some people kind of go, well, I don't really need the diagnosis.
Kate Moore Youssef:Cause I know what my brain's like.
Kate Moore Youssef:And they're not that bothered whether they want to know if they've got ADHD or autism or both.
Kate Moore Youssef:But for me, it was just.
Kate Moore Youssef:I could breathe.
Joshua Fletcher:I was like, oh, okay, absolutely.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm with you on that.
Joshua Fletcher:And I often have fights with psychotherapists, fellow colleagues about this.
Joshua Fletcher:I get on my soapbox, you know, like, stop giving everyone labels.
Joshua Fletcher:It's reductive.
Joshua Fletcher:It's like, no, I'll tell you what's more reductive is assuming that everyone is the same.
Joshua Fletcher:You've reduced everyone into one equal singularity.
Joshua Fletcher:If there is, there is nothing more reductive than that.
Joshua Fletcher:Having labels can be empowering for people.
Joshua Fletcher:Don't get me wrong.
Joshua Fletcher:There is an over medicalization of mental health and it's progressing.
Joshua Fletcher:Stuff like that.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm not disputing that.
Joshua Fletcher:But for me, when someone told me I had panic disorder, when someone said I had, the biggest one for me was ocd, obsessive compulsive disorder.
Joshua Fletcher:It's just a very real thing.
Joshua Fletcher:And I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, that.
Joshua Fletcher:That was a life changer for me.
Joshua Fletcher:And with the autism diagnosis and things like that, it gave me the tools to understand how my brain works with compassion as opposed to being like, why can't I do what they're doing?
Joshua Fletcher:Why can't I do what my brother's doing?
Joshua Fletcher:Why can't I do what my friends are doing?
Joshua Fletcher:Why can't I fit in?
Joshua Fletcher:Why can't I do these tasks?
Joshua Fletcher:No, it's like, oh, I can do these things.
Joshua Fletcher:And I'm actually really good at doing loads of cool things.
Joshua Fletcher:But there's some things that I'd need a bit of care to access.
Kate Moore Youssef:Totally.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I think being neurodivergent, whether I'm generalizing or not, we have a lot of questions.
Kate Moore Youssef:We're big thinkers, we're deep thinkers.
Kate Moore Youssef:And to not have answers to questions is really hard to manage and to hold.
Kate Moore Youssef:And for me I had so many questions and never had any answers.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so that caused me to just constantly be in self criticism mode and put other people in a pedestal and everyone else is doing so much better or doing things differently.
Kate Moore Youssef:Why can't I do it?
Kate Moore Youssef:And then the kind of the epiphany of the adhd, I was like, that's why I'm so creative.
Kate Moore Youssef:That's why I have a million ideas.
Kate Moore Youssef:That's why I'm so good at this, that and the other.
Kate Moore Youssef:But that's why I can't read board game instructions and that's why I can't hear people tell me directions.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like all these different things that I.
Kate Moore Youssef:For me it was like life changing.
Kate Moore Youssef:It really has been life changing because it's changed the course of my career.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's brought me, you know, doing this podcast, it's allowed me to help and support so many people.
Kate Moore Youssef:And so yeah, I think to never diminish the power of a diagnosis, if that is what you are, you know, you really are looking for.
Joshua Fletcher:And did you find you were kinder to yourself when it made sense?
Joshua Fletcher:And how much stress does that take off you?
Kate Moore Youssef:So much.
Joshua Fletcher:Some of our biggest stresses of when we're an absolute dick to ourselves, probably the.
Kate Moore Youssef:Yeah, I was in such.
Kate Moore Youssef:I was so self critical the whole time and I just, my poor husband just hear me going, why is this person always doing better?
Kate Moore Youssef:Why can't I stick to something?
Kate Moore Youssef:Why do I keep changing my mind?
Kate Moore Youssef:And he didn't have the answers.
Kate Moore Youssef:He was just very supportive.
Kate Moore Youssef:But he got to a point where he was like, you need to get out of this.
Kate Moore Youssef:I was very much in victim mentality and I wasn't empowered.
Kate Moore Youssef:I didn't feel strong, I was hyper focusing on all my negative traits in adverted commas and I never saw the strengths for what they were.
Kate Moore Youssef:And even I saw my strengths as a negative.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like having so many ideas was you're so flaky, you can't stick to anything.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like you've always got these ideas but you never follow through.
Kate Moore Youssef:Where.
Kate Moore Youssef:When I got the ADHD diagnosis, even though I got two brothers and even though it looked completely different to the way their ADHD showed up, I was like, well, of course I'm got ADHD because it doesn't look like my brother's.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then, you know, with the psycho education, with the understanding with then going into complete hyperfocus of wanting to learn everything I could about adhd, then I was right.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'M not going to.
Kate Moore Youssef:This is it.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm changing the way I speak to myself because I don't wanna see my daughters talk to themselves.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we've got a whole family of adhd so powerful.
Joshua Fletcher:And it's really nice.
Joshua Fletcher:That's.
Joshua Fletcher:And particularly I love it when I hear parents be like, nah, just cause I went through it doesn't mean my children have to.
Joshua Fletcher:And I'm gonna change things.
Joshua Fletcher:I love stuff like that.
Joshua Fletcher:I think that's me being cliche therapist.
Joshua Fletcher:But no, that's lovely.
Joshua Fletcher:And that will change and there'll be a cultural shift with it as well.
Joshua Fletcher:Just for to be very accepting of how brains work.
Kate Moore Youssef:Correct.
Joshua Fletcher:That's okay.
Joshua Fletcher:And that's.
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher:Again, I love psycho education.
Joshua Fletcher:Really boring on a first date, but I love it.
Joshua Fletcher:My mates, I'm out of the pub, my mates, they're like, don't get him started.
Joshua Fletcher:Oh God, we're all going to yawn ourselves to death.
Kate Moore Youssef:You just need to meet that person that goes, this is fascinating.
Kate Moore Youssef:And then it'll be fine.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, moving on to the psychoeducation, you've got your website, is it the school of anxiety, is that right?
Joshua Fletcher:Schoolofanxiety.com.
Joshua Fletcher:that's where I.
Joshua Fletcher:If you struggle with the anxiety disorders and we'll have to get you on the disordered podcast.
Joshua Fletcher:We talk about all things panic attacks, OCD, agoraphobia, things like that.
Joshua Fletcher:Me and my co host Drew, both therapists and previous sufferers of anxiety.
Joshua Fletcher:There's things on there like my books and stuff, including the.
Kate Moore Youssef:Tell us about your book.
Joshua Fletcher:Oh, I tell you what, Kate, it's an absolute banger.
Joshua Fletcher:So I've written some self help books for anxiety, panic attacks, panic disorder.
Joshua Fletcher:They did really well.
Joshua Fletcher:And then I thought I want to write a mainstream book that will make people laugh and cry and then laugh again and then laugh, cry and educate them.
Joshua Fletcher:And so I wrote and how does that make you feel?
Joshua Fletcher:Which is obviously a cliche trope phrase from the therapy world that I have never said, never will say.
Kate Moore Youssef:You need a badge that says that.
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah, I will not say.
Joshua Fletcher:And how does it make you feel?
Joshua Fletcher:And it's an insight into what happens behind the door of the therapy room.
Joshua Fletcher:So I invite you into the therapy room and we follow four client case studies.
Joshua Fletcher:Obviously heavily anonymized, huge ethical process, just don't throw fruit at me.
Joshua Fletcher:And obviously consent was gained, et cetera, et cetera.
Joshua Fletcher:And we followed four client case studies.
Joshua Fletcher:One person struggles with panic attacks, nocturnal panic attacks and self esteem issues.
Joshua Fletcher:And this person is a famous Hollywood celebrity.
Joshua Fletcher:The second is a nightclub bouncer who struggles with intrusive thoughts and ocd.
Joshua Fletcher:Intrusive thoughts about his family that's so taboo he can't stay aloud.
Joshua Fletcher:Third person is a gp.
Joshua Fletcher:Struggles with driving anxiety and grief.
Joshua Fletcher:Oh yeah, driving anxiety is a big one.
Joshua Fletcher:It's one of my most listened to podcast episodes.
Kate Moore Youssef:You know, interestingly, it's connected to the menopause.
Kate Moore Youssef:I've heard a lot of people talk about driving anxiety being a prominent menopausal symptom.
Joshua Fletcher:Yeah, no, it's, it's driving anxiety in my, in my opinion is a form of agoraphobia because we're afraid to be overwhelmed by the anxiety behind the wheel.
Joshua Fletcher:Because if we get so anxious behind the wheel we can lose control and the consequences are high risk.
Joshua Fletcher:These people avoid going on the fast lane in the motorway or avoid motorways altogether.
Joshua Fletcher:They'll avoid certain roads they don't like sitting at traffic lights, et cetera.
Joshua Fletcher:It's actually a malform of agoraphobia.
Joshua Fletcher:It's very rare that people actually suddenly look at their Fiat Punto and go it's like no, it's just like I just want to.
Joshua Fletcher:I'm afraid of losing control because the anxiety, particularly with menopause and perimenopause, very common to get an anxiety disorder diagnosis around that age.
Joshua Fletcher:And I never knew.
Joshua Fletcher:I did a post on my own Instagram last month, I was like here we go, I'm going to get absolutely slaughtered for mansplaining here.
Joshua Fletcher:And I put it out there and actually it was received really, really well as I was, made my day.
Joshua Fletcher:But like very.
Joshua Fletcher:It's not surprising for me.
Joshua Fletcher:My anxiety disorder started when there's a whole load of cortisol and adrenaline because of stress trauma stuff that I mentioned at the start of the episode.
Joshua Fletcher:Now it's not surprising when you're going through that when you suddenly have all this excess cortisol, hormonal shifts and changes on top of stress and then you, you suddenly go inwards and develop an anxiety really, really common and it makes sense and it's annoying because doctors don't, a lot of doctors don't explain this.
Joshua Fletcher:You know, it's not bashing doctors but it's like it's just not common knowledge.
Joshua Fletcher:Yes, things like that.
Joshua Fletcher:If you.
Joshua Fletcher:The books talks about a lot of issues.
Joshua Fletcher:It's not heavy, it's mostly funny.
Joshua Fletcher:I talk to about my inner thoughts, literally tell you what I'm thinking in the session and there's little voices in my head and they're all arguing like anxiety, compassion, analytical criticism, irreverence.
Joshua Fletcher:They're all arguing around a table.
Joshua Fletcher:Bit like inside out.
Joshua Fletcher:It was inspired by inside out, actually.
Joshua Fletcher:Not seen the second one yet.
Joshua Fletcher:And when they're all arguing as I'm working with clients and I show you how both professional and excellent I can be as a therapist, and also how utterly terrible I can be as a therapist, just to show you what therapy's.
Kate Moore Youssef:Like, I can't wait to read it.
Kate Moore Youssef:I mean, for me, that sounds refreshing.
Kate Moore Youssef:It sounds insightful.
Kate Moore Youssef:I love your take on things.
Kate Moore Youssef:I love your humor, and I'm really, really.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm really excited to see what else you do, because I think what you've got is you speak to women.
Kate Moore Youssef:I think you speak to men, you speak to teens, older people.
Kate Moore Youssef:It's really, really powerful.
Kate Moore Youssef:And we just need to normalize these conversations.
Kate Moore Youssef:And no one wants to feel alone in these.
Kate Moore Youssef:In these thoughts.
Kate Moore Youssef:And I don't know one person that doesn't have some form of intrusive thoughts or anxious thoughts or concerns or worries.
Kate Moore Youssef:Thank you so much.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm going to put all the links of your website, your book, podcast, social media, all on the show notes, and people can find you there.
Kate Moore Youssef:I'm sure they know about who you are.
Joshua Fletcher:Anyway.
Joshua Fletcher:No, I don't know.
Joshua Fletcher:Thank you so much.
Joshua Fletcher:What a really nice podcast this was.
Joshua Fletcher:And thank you for having me as a guest.
Kate Moore Youssef:Thanks, Josh.
