ADHD Purpose & Gut Health with Kat Brown & Dr Rachel Gow

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:00:01

Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:00:04

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:00:17

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:00:27

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:00:42

Here's today's episode hi everyone.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:00:49

Welcome to another episode of the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:00:53

We are having another curated compilation episode where I'm bringing you some of my favorite guests, some of my most interesting conversations and trying to bring them together with an energy that feels pertinent for each episode.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:01:08

And today I have got Kat Brown and Rachel Gow.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:01:12

Now I'll start with Kat.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:01:14

Kat Brown is a freelance journalist and a commentator whose work on ADHD mental health stigma, another social and art commentary, has appeared in lots of national titles such as Grazia, the Telegraph, the Times, and she has a fantastic book that she brought out this year called It's Not a Bloody A Guide to Living With ADHD in Adulthood.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:01:35

Now, I really highly recommend this book and I really wanted to share this conversation that I had with Kat because I think it's a powerful conversation to have if you are newly diagnosed or you are looking for further support or validation or an understanding of how your ADHD has shown up, which may look very different to other people's adhd, as.

Kat Brown: 00:01:55

Certainly I find through listening to your podcast, to all of the ADHD podcasts and other, you know, neurological conditions, other mental health podcasts, we try and listen to the similarities and not the differences in people's stories.

Kat Brown: 00:02:09

And it's kind of amazing how in people who on paper we have nothing in common with, we can take so much comfort and reassurance from people sharing their stories.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:19

How do you feel knowing that you've put this book out into the world and you've given all these people a voice and allowed other people to see themselves in this sort of collective group of people and know that actually we're not broken, flawed, bad people?

Kat Brown: 00:02:34

On the one hand, I feel completely delighted and also really put out because pretty much everybody that I've interviewed in the book is much funnier than I am.

Kat Brown: 00:02:41

And there are some amazing, amazing zingers in there which make me very, very happy.

Kat Brown: 00:02:47

I underlined a few of them.

Kat Brown: 00:02:49

Yeah.

Kat Brown: 00:02:50

But on the other hand, when I think sit down with my tarot cards or something else, or with the traitors of an afternoon, I've got about 12 global series to work my way through now.

Kat Brown: 00:03:02

I feel really angry.

Kat Brown: 00:03:03

shouldn't have to do this in: 2024

Kat Brown: 00:03:14

People should be able to access healthcare at all, let alone without a waiting list.

Kat Brown: 00:03:20

People should be able to either go to a doctor and know that they will be listened to thoughtfully and realistically and not dismissed out of hand by somebody who isn't perhaps an expert themselves.

Kat Brown: 00:03:33

People shouldn't have to turn to TikTok or books or podcasts.

Kat Brown: 00:03:38

All the things that we do whilst we're waiting for an assessment to find out more about how our brains work, to learn at a relatively late stage in life that we are not defective, horrible avatars in meat suits.

Kat Brown: 00:03:52

Like people should not have to find out through their children being diagnosed with a condition that they also have that condition.

Kat Brown: 00:03:59

And the idea that then there are still some people who are disingenuous enough to go, oh well, they're just chasing medication.

Kat Brown: 00:04:06

Oh, sorry, that medication that people are going to have to be on a waiting list for two more years to access the medication that is largely not available in the UK at the moment.

Kat Brown: 00:04:15

Instead of, you know, I don't know, going on WhatsApp and texting the neighborhood drug dealer to do a drop off, it's just.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:22

And the medication, it's so convoluted and not certain if it was just one pill and it was simple and it wasn't going to be this kind of like three month grind of trying this thing, failing with that thing, upping it, changing it, mixing it, balancing it, it's frankly exhausting having to go through that titration period.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:45

And so if someone was doing it for the medication, it's just ridiculous.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:49

And a lot of the time we go through this whole process and realize that actually, do we like the medication?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:55

I'm not sure.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:56

It's not for that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:57

And it's very important that people understand that it's not a quick fix, this medication.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:02

You also talk about access to work and how to really stay, you know, stay on top of that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:08

Because it is not an easy system nightmare.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:11

And it's almost just doing it to spite them, isn't it?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:14

I mean, sometimes I do drive them mad because I think they, they are ignoring me again.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:18

And I just drive them ma.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:20

Because I deserve to get this access to work help.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:23

And so many of the people deserve it as well.

Kat Brown: 00:05:25

There's also a really interesting phrase that I think it's important for us to keep in mind, particularly if when we see sloppy coverage of ADHD or to be honest, any other community or minority being treated in this way.

Kat Brown: 00:05:38

And that's future shock.

Kat Brown: 00:05:39

And that is when the idea of the future and present just sort of, they just all come up a little bit too fast.

Kat Brown: 00:05:47

And it's basically where we are now with the Internet, with 24 hour news cycles, with, with trends, with Twitter storms, with all of that.

Kat Brown: 00:05:54

It's that feeling of things catching up too fast.

Kat Brown: 00:05:57

And that is when people can become particularly donkey, like stubborn and just like, well, this is all nonsense.

Kat Brown: 00:06:04

We didn't have it in my day.

Kat Brown: 00:06:05

And it's like, no you didn't, Stephen.

Kat Brown: 00:06:07

Because back then if people had a problem and they weren't in an acceptable group, if you like, like for example, a white middle class or upper class gentleman who, you know, you could put away any sort of strange behavior by calling him eccentric or something like a nice honor word like that, it's just, you know, things have changed and I think this might be real, you know, Pollyanna thinking, but for me, something that really helps, whether it is around ADHD or they're not being the one pill to fix everything.

Kat Brown: 00:06:42

And again, if we do do medication, then coaching and therapy should always be part of that golden triangle.

Kat Brown: 00:06:48

Fingers crossed.

Kat Brown: 00:06:48

Although good luck to us accessing it.

Kat Brown: 00:06:51

But it is that whatever we do now, our experiences now, the research that we take part in, the literature that we put out there, the stories that we share on social media, the family that we speak to, the children that we are raising, all of this is doing, all of this is going ahead to help people down the line in generations to come understand themselves better.

Kat Brown: 00:07:15

And that is an absolutely amazing thing.

Kat Brown: 00:07:18

It may not be like the comfort, above all comforts, but particularly for people with adhd, and to be very generalizing about it, we love a sense of purpose.

Kat Brown: 00:07:26

We love a mission.

Kat Brown: 00:07:28

What an incredible mission to be a part of.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:31

Yeah, absolutely.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:33

And you know, that's what gets me up in the morning, that's what keeps me going when I'm exhausted and burnt out.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:39

Because I've got three daughters and a son and all four of them are neurodivergent, three are diagnosed.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:44

And as much as they don't want to hear from me because I'm their mum and all I do is talk about ADHD and gently put books on the stairs and their pillows and send them podcast links which get ignored.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:57

And I try and say, yeah, I'm a, I'm an expert in this.

Kat Brown: 00:08:00

And they say I'm a cool mom.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:03

I do not care.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:04

All you do is talk about ADHD and then shut me down.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:07

And it's very frustrating.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:08

But I, I hope that one day this work that I'm trying to do in this world will help them or help their children or their friends and the next generation.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:19

We just plow on and we just do what we need to do.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:21

And like you say, if, if we're lucky enough to be driven by purpose, if we're lucky enough to have found something that motivates us and gives us fulfillment.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:30

And we know that Dr.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:32

Ned Halliwell talks about this a lot and I know you mentioned him in the book, that he's a big, a big proponent of really honing in on what fulfills us, what drives us, what keeps us going every day, what we feel passionate about.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:45

And then whether that's a big mission or just getting up in the morning and sweeping your leaves and keeping your garden tidy and, or going to your local church or doing whatever that is, as long as that that's there, then you will have an easier life with adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:03

I wanted to introduce Rachel Gao as well.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:05

Now Rachel has got a fantastic book also something that I recommend highly to lots of clients in my community called smart foods for ADHD and brain health.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:15

Something I'm very passionate about.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:17

And Dr.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:18

Gao is a registered nutritionist and she's published 22 peer reviewed book chapters in scientific papers.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:25

And she is also a specialist in neuroscience, epigenetics.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:30

What I would say is how to describe Dr.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:32

Rachel Gow, Ph.D.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:34

is she is a nutritional neuroscientist, a neuropsychologist and a neurodevelopmental specialist.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:39

Specialist with expertise in various mental health conditions and associative learning and behavior differences.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:45

So Rachel really is the most incredible expert.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:49

Our full conversation on the podcast was absolutely fascinating.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:09:52

And what really is something that I am really honing in on so much now on the podcast you may have noticed is I guess sort of the neurology side of ADHD and really understanding the neuroscience and how our brain is wired and what we can do to help ourselves and the gut brain connection and really boosting what we have.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:11

We've got a wiring and we want to be able to know how we can make the best out of this, how we can really look after ourselves and thrive with our lifestyles and Understand the right foods and the way to live so our neuropsychological makeup can feel right to us.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:27

And for many of us, it's not felt right.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:29

We've always known there's something different.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:31

So let's hear from Dr.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:33

Rachel Gao.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:34

There's always a way.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:36

There's always.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:36

We've always got choice and we've always got a way to step into our power, even if it feels like we're totally powerless.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:44

And then you find out that your child's got a learning difference, which I can assume, you know, back then wasn't called a learning difference.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:10:53

And you, you were, you were then having to like, navigate this whole world on your own as a single parent and learn about adhd, which is only just.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:02

The stigma is only just being removed slightly.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:05

I mean, it's still there.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:07

So I can only imagine what it must have been like for you to have to then advocate for your son and advocate for what he needs.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:15

And can you tell me a little bit about how then you became, you know, a dietitian, a neuropsych, psychiatrist, and why, you know, diet and nutrition and everything has become like your, your whole career now?

Rachel Gow: 00:11:27

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:29

I just want to say, first and foremost, like, I salute every single mom.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:33

Raising a child with a neurodevelopmental difference.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:36

It is not easy at all.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:39

I don't think people understand the challenges.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:41

I mean, luckily I was young because I had lots of energy and that was important.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:46

I was able to juggle a lot.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:48

And I did.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:49

I had to.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:49

I had to become a bit of a helicopter mom.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:52

But it was a extremely challenging.

Rachel Gow: 00:11:55

And the lack of professionals, the lack of support from teachers, just constant calls being bombarded.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:01

You know, pick your son up.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:02

Come to this meeting, let's discuss this.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:05

It just went on and on and on to the point where I had to completely give up my job in real estate.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:11

And everything happens for a reason, you know, Everything happens a reason.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:16

And, you know, the realization that being this successful young working mom was never going to work.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:24

And that's when I decided to attend university part time.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:28

And I was very lucky because if you're 21 or over, you I don't know if it's still the same nowadays, but you could get in on merit.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:38

So I got it.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:40

Just because I'd actually decided to study psychology during the evening and do an AS level in psychology as a hobby.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:49

Just as a hobby.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:50

I was, I was really interested in psychology.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:51

I was like, oh, I'm going to do this class, you know, up the road.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:53

For me.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:54

And, you know, and I.

Rachel Gow: 00:12:55

So I had that and then I had kind of what they call life experience.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:00

So upon interview, I managed to, to gain entry.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:03

And they didn't even make me do a one year access course, which was sometimes the case.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:08

They make you do a one year access course before you go to uni.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:11

So I was extremely blessed that I was granted entry as a mature student and I decided to study, you know, and that led to, as I said, you know, 14 years of study.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:21

And it just kind of snowballed.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:22

That was never the plan.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:24

I just wanted to find out as a mom how I could, you know, best understand these neurodevelopmental differences, what they meant, you know, what was going on in the brain.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:34

And I began to learn that the brain is a biological organ and that basically what you ate had a huge impact on how your brain functioned at a molecular and cellular level.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:48

And that was just fascinating.

Rachel Gow: 00:13:49

And I'd noticed at home with my son that changing his diet and going back to basics, completely, getting back in the kitchen and making everything from scratch, eliminating processed foods, had the biggest difference beyond methylphenidate, which has given him terrible side effects.

Rachel Gow: 00:14:07

And we'd really battled with that one because actually a school presented me of the dilemma that you even medicate your son or we will politely ask you to withdraw him, because that's what private schools love to do.

Rachel Gow: 00:14:20

So I was kind of forced to medicate him, which I didn't want to do, but I did.

Rachel Gow: 00:14:25

And unfortunately it just didn't work out for him.

Rachel Gow: 00:14:29

I know the brain imaging studies show that can normalize brain function in the same way as non diagnosed children.

Rachel Gow: 00:14:37

You know, so children without adhd, they can actually kind of normalize brain function.

Rachel Gow: 00:14:42

And there are lots of positives with ADHD medications for some people.

Rachel Gow: 00:14:47

But we have to address the fact that at least a proportion of individuals are non responders or the side effects is so severe, it's estimated it's around one third that this happens to.

Rachel Gow: 00:15:00

The side effects are so severe that it warrants discontinuation.

Rachel Gow: 00:15:03

And also because of my nutritional psychiatry neuroscience training, I know that nutrients can act pharmacologically, so they can act like a drug in the brain, obviously over a much longer period of time.

Rachel Gow: 00:15:19

They don't give those instant effect sizes.

Rachel Gow: 00:15:23

And of course, an effect size for anyone listening is just a kind of a standard for how effective an intervention is.

Rachel Gow: 00:15:31

It's a statistical quotient, if you like.

Rachel Gow: 00:15:34

I just want to make that clear.

Rachel Gow: 00:15:36

When you test a nutritional medicinal product, it has an effect size, so you know how effective it is actually in reducing clinical symptoms, whether it's depression or adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:47

So the gut brain axis, you know, we hear this a lot, that this is really pivotal with ADHD and nutrition and our mood regulation and cognition, that if we start, like you say, removing more of the processed food, eating cleaner foods, eating the right type of balanced protein and omega 3s, really making sure that we are kind of honing in on nutrition.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:16:15

And are you noticing a big difference when, say, a family comes to you or a parent comes to you and you put them on a different diet protocol?

Rachel Gow: 00:16:22

Okay, so let's go kind of right back.

Rachel Gow: 00:16:25

I help parents in a diverse way.

Rachel Gow: 00:16:27

So I have nutritious minds consulting, which is a clinic, which effectively sends people to a clinic in W1 where they have a blood draw.

Rachel Gow: 00:16:38

And then I look at their personalized nutrient profile to assess for specific insufficiencies in key nutrients which regulate neurotransmitter function.

Rachel Gow: 00:16:51

So, you know, which may help contribute to the regulation of serotonin, gaba, dopamine, NORMA, and so on and so on.

Rachel Gow: 00:17:00

So first and foremost, I do that, and then simultaneously I will take a stool sample to look at their gut health and what's going on there.

Rachel Gow: 00:17:08

Because obviously the gut brain axis is critical.

Rachel Gow: 00:17:11

You know, it's a new and emerging field, and we're still learning more and more.

Rachel Gow: 00:17:16

But there are research pockets all over the world now that are giving us a very good indication of the influences of our gut microbiota.

Rachel Gow: 00:17:24

And I'll also look at food intolerances and food allergies, which is really, really important, because basically what often what's happening is that children are eating the very foods that they are intolerant to, promoting the growth of what we call dysbiotic or pathogenic bacteria in the gut, which are then over colonizing and are impacting the production of specific neurotransmitters which are made in the gut and then some of which are transported into the brain.

Rachel Gow: 00:18:00

So that's really critical.

Rachel Gow: 00:18:01

And in fact, what I found over the years of collecting data in this area is that almost 100% of the families that I work with, their children present with a wide range of nutritional insufficiencies in key nutrients like iron, iodine, magnesium, selenium, omega 3 fatty acids, and so on, plus food intolerances, plus food allergies, as well as dysbiotic bacteria in their stool samples.

Rachel Gow: 00:18:30

So that's really important collectively because when we do that type of data collection, we have a personalized profile in terms of nutrition, what's going on.

Rachel Gow: 00:18:41

So, and then we, the great thing is we can make changes so we can improve the nutritional insufficiencies by making specific dietary recommendations.

Rachel Gow: 00:18:51

You know, you need to eat more of this food group or you, you need to adjust that or you need to restrict your intake of ultra processed foods.

Rachel Gow: 00:18:59

That's really, really important because a lot of people don't really understand much about the impacts of ultra processed foods.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:06

And in fact I have been working with a research team made up with several researchers, mainly from America.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:15

Some of you may have heard of Dr.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:17

Robert Lustig who wrote Metabolical.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:20

He also wrote the Hacking of the American Mind.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:23

But we've been working on a project for about three years now which has been published and it's called the Metabolic Matrix.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:30

Re engineering ultra processed foods to feed the gut, protect the liver and support the brain.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:34

And you can download that for free on Frontiers in Nutrition.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:39

But ultra processed foods ultimately consist of non nutritive compounds, synthetic food additives, many of which are not regulated like flavorings, colorings, preservatives, you know, synthetic emulsifiers.

Rachel Gow: 00:19:53

They often contain trans fats, refined carbohydrates, processed meats, excess sugar, sweetened beverages.

Rachel Gow: 00:20:01

All of these are ultra processed foods which are, you know, heavily industrially produced formulations and notoriously poor food sources of the types of foods that we need for brain health and brain function.

Rachel Gow: 00:20:15

And we know because it's been systematic reviews in terms of outcomes and effects that they impact the body and the brain.

Rachel Gow: 00:20:24

They increase risk for the development, the premature development of metabolic health diseases, type 2 diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease, stroke and so on and so forth.

Rachel Gow: 00:20:34

But they also impact the brain in terms of the function and activity of the brain.

Rachel Gow: 00:20:40

And I think we have to be careful because ADHD individuals of ADHD specifically, I have found within my professional research that they're chasing the dopamine high.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:53

Yeah, exactly.

Rachel Gow: 00:20:55

And it often starts when they're eight or nine with sugar addiction.

Rachel Gow: 00:20:59

They get that dopamine release and the activation of the ward circuitry in the brain, the ventral striatum, nucleus accumbens, those areas, those regions are activated in the same way they are in adults taking, you know, cannabis, cocaine, marijuana, nicotine, alcohol.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:15

And they're rewarded if you like, you know, for eating those junk and processed foods.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:21

And that starts the binge withdrawal, repeat cycle of addiction that can increase.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:27

And then teenage years, they're experimenting, you know, cannabis.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:31

And then some people with ADHD will self medicate their entire life, you know, as a way of kind of normalizing their brain's biochemistry.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:40

You know, we're wired to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:43

But unfortunately, although some of those substances, like nicotine, for example, clinical trials, has been shown to enhance memory, you know, it has been shown to increase attention.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:53

But it's everything else that's, you know, doesn't come to the nicotine that is highly dangerous.

Rachel Gow: 00:21:58

And obviously nicotine is a very addictive substance.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:00

It's very difficult to withdraw from that, like heroin.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:04

But you know, individuals with ADHD have increased risks when it comes to addiction because of that dopamine release.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:10

And anything that can release dopamine, I mean, whether it's, you know, social media, gaming, junk and processed food, sex can be addictive.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:19

And that's what, that's the path that you have to be careful of.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:21

It's like almost like if you have adhd, just be so mindful as to what you're putting in your body.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:28

And I think there's an element also of kind of like self love and self care there, you know, as well.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:35

And I think a lot of people with adhd, like my son, have suffered from low self esteem throughout their lives and that lead also to harmful outcomes because you just feel shit about yourself and then you're going to do things that are going to make you feel even shittier.

Rachel Gow: 00:22:50

And that's the sad thing about it, you know, And I think working on yourself, we're all works in progress and there's so much we need to do to keep ourselves away from harms and also kind of optimizing well being.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:09

I really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:13

If you did and it resonated with you, I would absolutely love it if you could share on your platforms or maybe leave a review and a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:23

And please do check out my website, ADHD womenswellbeing.co.uk for lots of free resources, resources and paid for workshops.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:31

I'm uploading new things all the time and I would absolutely love to see you there.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:36

Take care and see you for the next episode.