Your Brain—and Family!—Aren't Broken: Dr. Tamara Rosier on Supporting Neurodivergent Families
How does ADHD impact family dynamics, emotional regulation, and communication? In this episode, Dr. Tamara Rosier, ADHD expert, coach, and author of You, Me, and Our ADHD Family, shares practical strategies for fostering healthier relationships in neurodivergent households.
Through her extensive experience working with ADHD individuals and families, Dr. Rosier provides insights on emotional regulation, personal responsibility, and creating a supportive home environment - helping you navigate ADHD challenges with more awareness and harmony.
What You’ll Learn in this ADHD Women's Wellbeing Episode:
✨ Why emotional dysregulation is a major challenge in ADHD families - and how to manage it
✨ The importance of the ‘window of tolerance’ in regulating emotions during stressful moments
✨ How ADHD affects independence, responsibilities, and family dynamics
✨ The role of self-awareness and personal responsibility in creating healthier interactions
✨ Practical strategies to support neurodivergent family members while maintaining balance
Timestamps:
- 10:30: Understanding the window of tolerance in ADHD families
- 19:31: The Pool Metaphor: Navigating emotions and responsibility
- 27:31: Understanding over and under-functioning in relationships
- 36:59: Navigating new beginnings: A parent's journey to letting go
- 45:56: Creating chosen families and healing wounds
Find out more about Tamara's work via her website, adhdcenterofwestmichigan.com or via her Instagram, @dr.tamararosier.
Find Kate's popular online workshops and free resources here.
Kate Moryoussef is a women's ADHD lifestyle and wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity and clarity.
Follow the podcast on Instagram.
Takeaways:
- Understanding ADHD in women is crucial as it helps them embrace their unique brains and capabilities.
- That emotional dysregulation is a common issue in ADHD families that can disrupt harmony and relationships.
- How the concept of the 'window of tolerance' is essential for managing emotional responses effectively in ADHD situations.
- Creating a supportive environment for neurodivergent family members can help them learn to manage their own challenges better.
- Taking responsibility for one's emotional state is vital for maintaining healthy family dynamics during challenging times.
- How ADHD individuals may mature at a different rate, affecting their independence and responsibilities.
Links referenced in this episode:
- adhdwomenswellbeing.co.uk
- ADHD Nervous System resources: https://www.adhdwomenswellbeing.co.uk/regulate-adhd-nervous-system
Transcript
Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.
Speaker A:After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.
Speaker A:In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.
Speaker A:Here's today's episode.
Speaker A:I have a wonderful guest I'm so happy to invite back onto the podcast.
Speaker A:We last spoke quite a long time ago, right at the very beginning of the inception of the podcast and she is back now with a new book.
Speaker A:We've got Dr.
Speaker A:Tamara Rosier here and Dr.
Speaker A:Tamara has been a college administrator, a professor, a leadership consultant, a high school teacher, a business owner and an ADHD coach.
Speaker A:And through all these varied experiences, she has gained invaluable insights into ADHD and its impact on individuals lives.
Speaker A:And as the founder of the ADHD center of West Michigan, Dr.
Speaker A:Rosier guides a dedicated team of coaches, therapists and speech pathologists in assisting people, parents and families as they develop a deep understanding of themselves, acquire practical skills to navigate life with adhd.
Speaker A:Her brilliant book, your Brain's Not Broken, which I use all the time.
Speaker A:And now her brand new book, you, Me and our ADHD family on offer practical strategies for addressing the potent emotional dimensions of living with adhd.
Speaker A:Welcome, Tamara.
Speaker B:Ah, it's great to be here.
Speaker B:You've done great things with this podcast.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker A:It's been going a while.
Speaker A:Yeah, you came on really at the very beginning and I thank you.
Speaker A:You put some trust and faith in me and we've been going ever since.
Speaker A:It's been a bit of a journey.
Speaker A:And like I said, you know, your book, and it's here right now, is still being used all the time.
Speaker A:Your Brain' Not Broken, which came out a few, a few weeks.
Speaker A:A few, few weeks, a few years ago.
Speaker A:And now you have this brand new book which just sounds perfect for so many people who I know I work with, who are struggling, who are discovering their own neurodivergence while also parenting or perhaps they are realizing they're married to someone or neurodivergent and all of a sudden these like epiphanies are happening all over the show.
Speaker A:But on a daily basis.
Speaker A:We are struggling.
Speaker A:We're struggling with the emotions and the moods and the behavior and the impact that has on our marriages and family dynamics.
Speaker A:It's so deeply rooted.
Speaker A:And I think for you to have written this book is very timely and so needed.
Speaker A:Tell me a little bit about what.
Speaker A:What came from your first book of your Brain's Not Broken, and how you moved into this new one about families.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So your brain's not broken.
Speaker B:I think I said way back in the way.
Speaker B:I'm super corny, so just a warning to all your listeners, but this is very corny.
Speaker B:But I just.
Speaker B:I was meeting so many clients who were hurting, who were coming just to be going.
Speaker B:I feel so ashamed and stupid, and I hate myself.
Speaker B:And I kept saying to them, your brain's not broken.
Speaker B:You just don't understand how it works.
Speaker B:And so I wrote your brain's not broken as a love letter to all the clients I will never meet.
Speaker B:And I'll be really honest.
Speaker B:I was hoping It'd sell 5,000 copies.
Speaker B:Right now.
Speaker B:It sold over 65,000 copies, and it's been translated into three other languages.
Speaker B:And so I am so grateful that that love letter is getting out just to tell people, you're okay, you're okay, you're just walking and you're, you know what, you're just strutting to a different beat, and it's okay.
Speaker B:So that was the heart behind your Brain's Not Broken.
Speaker B:And I did try to combine recent research with how the brain works, and just lame people I kind of get to know, they're the.
Speaker B:Especially the emotional side of their brain.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:And it was very powerful.
Speaker A:And it was a, you know, to have that psycho education for people to actually understand and all the analogies that you've used in that book.
Speaker A:You know, I always refer back to what you say about the butler and, you know, borrowing someone else's executive functioning and all these different things.
Speaker A:I always refer back to it to help my clients understand how they can help themselves, but also to process everything.
Speaker A:And now I think what you're doing with your new book and which is called you, Me and our ADHD family, is bringing harmony, where I think there's been so much dysfunction and chaos and balance, because I know from growing up in a family with a huge amount of adhd, and now I'm parenting with my own ADHD and children with adhd, it's not easy.
Speaker A:It's really not easy.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:So just a quick thing about your brain's not broken, there's a workbook that's coming out that will be released in January.
Speaker B:And I just signed the contract for your Brains are Broken, the Teen Edition.
Speaker B:So those new project is the Teen Edition.
Speaker B:So I have to figure that out because I'm super old and I'm writing to super young.
Speaker B:But we'll figure it out.
Speaker A:I love what you're portraying just now.
Speaker A:It's like this ADHD kind of constant productivity, ambition.
Speaker A:And like, I've just been just saying that you literally just had a launch last night and already there's like, yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, well.
Speaker B:And, you know, some keeping busy is.
Speaker B:Is almost like a hobby for me.
Speaker B:It's not, I'm not doing it for achievement or success.
Speaker B:It's just I.
Speaker B:I kind of start a book with, huh, I wonder.
Speaker B:I wonder if anyone else is having this problem.
Speaker B:So I, I wrote you, me and our ADHD family.
Speaker B:Because, you know, you know, this ADHD runs in families.
Speaker B:So if I have adhd, my kids might have had adhd.
Speaker B:One of my parents had adhd, probably.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:Well, the emotional dysregulation of families is really a threat to harmony, to just emotional health overall.
Speaker B:And so, you know, in the book, I'm quite honest with how I grew up.
Speaker B:I grew up in a very emotionally dysfunctional home.
Speaker B:It took me a long time to grow and heal.
Speaker B:And I kind of have a painful story, and I don't get into it too deeply, but my upbringing was rough and, you know, my dad actually disowned me.
Speaker B:And I actually talk about that in the end of the book because sometimes people only have the, either you have to agree with me or I can't be in I can't live with you kind of thing.
Speaker B:So, you know, families, it's so difficult because if one person is emotionally dysregulated, other people kind of pick it up.
Speaker B:It's like a virus.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:This book isn't a parenting book at all.
Speaker B:It's for anyone who has ADHD who goes, gosh, I'm also related to people.
Speaker B:How do I relate to people?
Speaker B:And so I write a lot about that.
Speaker B:I write about the nervous system.
Speaker B:So the, the first part of the book is it begins with you.
Speaker B:In other words, get your own stuff together before you start talking with family.
Speaker B:And don't talk with family if you don't have your stuff together.
Speaker B:Meaning, like, if you're angry that day, if you're, if you're trying to pick a fight now, it's not the time.
Speaker B:You know, let's really work on healthy relationships.
Speaker B:So we have to work on you.
Speaker B:The second part of the book is called welcome to the Goat Rodeo.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:The rodeo is all about kind of the family life.
Speaker B:And you have family adhd.
Speaker B:Families are funny.
Speaker B:But when one person turns sour, usually for us it's in a car or someone's hungry.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It seeps through the family.
Speaker B:And so we talk about what to do in those situations.
Speaker A:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker A:I've just immediately kind of like thinking about all those times when there's a meltdown going on and all, and then just without any warning, just.
Speaker A:It just all erupts.
Speaker A:And then you're driving and then.
Speaker A:And your partner start arguing.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Who.
Speaker A:Who reacts?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And all of that.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It can go literally from 0 to 100 in A.
Speaker A:On a dysregulation perspective.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:So quickly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And usually on vacation, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we're gonna have fun, so everyone be quiet till we get there.
Speaker B:You know, just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Especially because we're all navigating.
Speaker A:If it's on vacation, like, we're excited, but actually there's the fear, there's the unknown.
Speaker A:We' schedule.
Speaker A:We haven't got access to food for the kids.
Speaker A:You know, when we know we can just kind of like, feed them if they're hungry.
Speaker A:You know, there's all these outside stimulus.
Speaker A:So many variables that, you know, you get so excited about a holiday, and then actually the holiday comes and it takes about four days for everybody to settle down.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker A:And I'm nervous.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's important just to say, because, you know, everyone kind of thinks, oh, other people are having such lovely, harmonious family holidays.
Speaker A:And, you know, we spent all year waiting and saving up and whatever.
Speaker A:And then we go on this holiday and everyone's arguing and screaming at each other for.
Speaker A:For the first four days.
Speaker A:And that is often the reality with an ADHD family.
Speaker B:I love that you're already in tune with us because.
Speaker B:So the book is in part.
Speaker B:Two parts.
Speaker B:In the first part, I talk about the window of tolerance.
Speaker B:Now, that's not an idea I created.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's an established idea, but I apply it to the ADHD person.
Speaker B:So we have a window.
Speaker B:And the window of tolerance is where you and I can act with ease.
Speaker B:Like, if someone says something, we're like, okay, that's fine.
Speaker B:Because our nervous system is within that window.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:That's what you believe.
Speaker B:That's fine.
Speaker B:Or.
Speaker B:Yeah, that was a starkey little comment over There, that's.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I'm not really outside my window of tolerance.
Speaker B:I'm just.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:When you and I first got on, I wasn't in my window of tolerance.
Speaker B:My dogs were behaving poorly.
Speaker B:And I'm like, kate, I need a second for these dumb dogs, right?
Speaker B:I was still, like, I was kind of edging up towards the top of my window, but I was still enough in my window of tolerance.
Speaker B:I wasn't that flustered.
Speaker B:When I came back, you said, are you okay?
Speaker B:And that was a way to check in on my window of tolerance.
Speaker B:And I'm like, yep, I'm okay.
Speaker B:I'm in my window of tolerance.
Speaker B:Just needed to deal with it.
Speaker B:But above this window of tolerance is hyper arousal.
Speaker B:And hyper arousal is where a lot of people go.
Speaker B:So let's say you have a child melting down, and then you go into, all right, how do we shut this down?
Speaker B:The child's in hyperarousal.
Speaker B:You're going to join the child.
Speaker B:And so hyperarousal is this physical sense, the nervous system, where we get worked up and we're in fight or flight, and our brain is scanning.
Speaker B:Children go into hyperarousal.
Speaker B:We all go into hyperarousal.
Speaker B:Now, what's interesting is below the window is hypo arousal.
Speaker B:And I also see a lot of that in families.
Speaker B:You know, the kid who just wants to lay on the couch should be on his phone.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:You know, a lot of people will say to me, I.
Speaker B:You know, I don't know what I did today.
Speaker B:I just felt sluggish.
Speaker B:Oh, it sounds like you to me, that you were in hypoarousal.
Speaker B:And those of us with adhd, we have a narrow window of tolerance.
Speaker B:And if you notice, like, I don't know what went wrong yesterday, but I.
Speaker B:I actually swore, and my daughter's like, oh, you do not need to use that language.
Speaker B:Well, she doesn't have adhd.
Speaker B:And it was a minor inconvenience.
Speaker B:And with my little window of tolerance like that, minor inconvenience pushed me into hyperarousal.
Speaker B:Now I was able to come back down into my window.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:But something that I do is I work with people to help them widen their window tolerance.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:This isn't about resilience.
Speaker B:Resilience is just kind of taking the hits.
Speaker B:Window of tolerance is.
Speaker B:My body's regulated.
Speaker B:I'm okay.
Speaker A:I love the concept of the window of tolerance.
Speaker A:I've done this as well.
Speaker A:I taught a polyvagal theory workshop.
Speaker A:And understanding it through the lens of adhd and it's been for me understanding these kind of concepts.
Speaker A:But the window of tolerance is definitely something ADHD people should be aware of and understand it so beautifully how you just described it.
Speaker A:Because when we understand what a window of tolerance is, we can implement certain lifestyle tools, wellbeing tools, to help us kind of expand it and keep it in that area that feels good to us.
Speaker A:And so I mean, I don't know if you'd agree, but I mean say, I'm going to say personally for me, my window tolerance can be much smaller.
Speaker A:If I've had a crazy day, back to back meetings, not had proper time for lunch, not exercised, then I go pick my kids up.
Speaker A:One of my kids is like back chatting and moaning and I've made dinner and they go, I don't want to eat that.
Speaker A:And all of a sudden I'll snap.
Speaker A:And my window of tolerance is like really, really small.
Speaker B:After a day, throughout the day it just compressed.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But then I know if I have, I've managed my diary better and I've had time to maybe take my dog out for a walk before my kids just have a bit of time away from computer, phone, all of that, have some space to breathe and I, then I pick my kids up, I feel a bit more re.
Speaker A:Energized and refreshed.
Speaker A:Even if they behave like that, I know that I will have more patience and I'll just know not to react to their, you know, and I can kind of co regulate the situation.
Speaker A:And it's, I think with ADHD it's so powerful to understand this concept.
Speaker A:I'm so glad you know that you, you're talking about this.
Speaker A:What other ways can people with ADHD really bring this into kind of like a practical mode with window of tolerance?
Speaker B:Yeah, so, so yeah, the first part of the book kind of sets up well.
Speaker B:You actually can answer this question better than I because you do the polyvagal work.
Speaker B:So you know that there's ways if you're in hypo, arousal that's below the window.
Speaker B:I know you know this, but just to remind your listeners, that's below the window.
Speaker B:So hypo is like you're without arousal, meaning without any impetus to do anything.
Speaker B:Then you do things to create more energy.
Speaker B:You could always do breath work, you could walk around, you could even do just 10 jumping jacks, anything to alert.
Speaker B:I don't know about you, but I use the Wayne Cook posture to get out of hypoarousal.
Speaker A:Now I don't Know that.
Speaker A:What is that?
Speaker B:Wayne Cook, he's.
Speaker B:This isn't a new and sexy thing.
Speaker B:I, I think he's like in the 50s or 60s, he worked with people who are stuttering and he was one of the first bilateral people to propose like braid bilateral work.
Speaker B:And for me, it has just really helped.
Speaker B:So now that I say it, I'm not sure how to explain this to your listeners, but it's when you cross your hands and you fold them in front of yourself so that your hands are crossed in front.
Speaker B:Did that make sense how I said that?
Speaker B:And then you also cross your feet and you stand in that posture and you straighten up and you take a deep breath and then you switch, you cross your arms again, you pull them through to your chest.
Speaker B:And listeners, if I'm not making sense, just look up.
Speaker B:The Wayne Cook posture, there's also a seating way too.
Speaker B:But even that simple posture for me can bring me out of hypoarousal.
Speaker B:So there's so many things that can bring us out.
Speaker B:It doesn't even have to be, you know, I have to do something quickly.
Speaker B:It can just be as simple as doing the weight Cook.
Speaker B:So hyperarousal.
Speaker B:And you know, this from all your work with Polyvagal is okay, I'm outside the window.
Speaker B:I need to actually bring my body down again.
Speaker B:I can do it with breath work.
Speaker B:I have to somehow convince my nervous system that I'm not in danger right now.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's.
Speaker A:Sometimes we have to recognize that, like, we just have to send ourselves a bit of love and forgiveness.
Speaker A:But it's the awareness, isn't it, of like now.
Speaker A:Right, okay.
Speaker A:Being constantly in this reactive mode and not really understanding what those triggers are or like working back.
Speaker A:Like, I'll go back to say, my example of that day of like back to back crazy.
Speaker A:Not enough time to eat, drink, walk, breathe, like all those things.
Speaker A:If I haven't got awareness.
Speaker A:And then, and then I pick my kids up and then they're shouting and that's just like a daily event.
Speaker A:Then there's.
Speaker A:That's going to be chaotic for the whole family.
Speaker A:And, and I mentioned the word CO regulation, which is again, you know, we talk about with the nervous system and, and everything.
Speaker A:And when I recognized, I understood CO regulation, which means that, and forgive me if I'm sort of like, you know, simplifying it too much, but it's when an adult is the calm, the safe, the capable kind of reliable one, bringing sort of like an energy to the family.
Speaker A:So the family and the children Then kind of feed off that energy.
Speaker A:Whereas if I we were the parent, that just brings shouting and, you know, all sorts of other chaotic emotions and behaviors and up and down moods and all of that, then that's going to have an impact on all the nervous systems in the house.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Can I share the metaphor that I use in the book about this?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because this is exactly so.
Speaker B:You know, you said, I apologize if I'm oversimplifying this.
Speaker B:I'm like, well, wait till she hears this metaphor.
Speaker B:This oversimplifies it.
Speaker B:But I wanted to give my readers an idea in a metaphor for this and a metaphor that they could work with in their family.
Speaker B:So I said, imagine a pool.
Speaker B:And the pool is where all your big emotions are.
Speaker B:Your deep emotions are in this pool.
Speaker B:Joy, deep joy, deep sadness, deep anger.
Speaker B:They're all in this pool.
Speaker B:Now, the pool is not a bad place, but it's intense emotion.
Speaker B:Do we want to go in there all the time for that?
Speaker B:Is that good?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Those of us with ADHD and I love how you talk about your adhd, we don't have a lifeguard on duty and we don't have a fence around our pool.
Speaker B:So we go through our day, la, la, la, la la.
Speaker B:And sometimes we're like, whoa, we fall into our pool.
Speaker B:And then what happens next is very important.
Speaker B:Am I going to splash other people?
Speaker B:Pull other people into my pool?
Speaker B:In families, sometimes there's that brother who will walk by his sister and just push her in the pool.
Speaker B:Metaphorically or physically, sometimes even.
Speaker B:And so it's a way to look at ourselves and what we're doing now.
Speaker B:Once you're in the pool, I teach families, it is your responsibility and your responsibility alone to get out of the pool.
Speaker B:And so really, if you can't say so and so push me in the pool.
Speaker B:Well, honey, why were you so close to the pool?
Speaker B:Of course he's going to try to push you in the pool.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And you know, I'll deal with brother, but I don't want you to not take responsibility.
Speaker B:Like, you fell into the pool.
Speaker B:And so falling into the pool is our responsibility.
Speaker B:And then we need to learn what to do.
Speaker B:We need to learn to swim to the side.
Speaker B:Do we need to get, like a flotation device?
Speaker B:We call them noodles.
Speaker B:You know, those.
Speaker B:I don't know if you guys have those foam noodles.
Speaker B:Do you need to get a noodle to float on for a second and just feel the emotion?
Speaker B:You need to swim to the other side, and then when you get out, that's when you do the debrief, that's when you make amends.
Speaker B:So if it's a parent with a child, you would help the child understand the pool story.
Speaker B:Like, hey, we got to walk through the pool story.
Speaker B:What happened?
Speaker B:How did, how did you get into that pool?
Speaker B:Not why, how, what.
Speaker B:What happened?
Speaker B:What could have happened instead, how'd you get yourself out of the pool?
Speaker B:Because that's good.
Speaker B:That's worth talking about.
Speaker B:Well, now what do we know about the pool that we didn't know before?
Speaker B:And so that's the pool.
Speaker B:And so with adults, you're saying, like, listen, I'm already metaphorically in the pool.
Speaker B:I'm picking up my kids, they're talking, and I'm just like doing the backstroke in my own pool right now.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Or maybe you're saying my toes are just curled over the edge because I could fall in any second.
Speaker B:And so knowing our proximity to the pool is very important for families.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's a brilliant analogy and I love all your analogies.
Speaker A:That's like, for me, simplification is my kind of go to.
Speaker A:Because I'm not a scientist and I'm not a doctor and I'm not a therapist.
Speaker A:I just like to be able to understand everything in the most practical way, to apply it to daily situations, because that's all we're doing.
Speaker A:We're just literally, it's like we're trying to get through the day.
Speaker A:And we're also, we're also now be.
Speaker A:You know, I specifically deal with women who are mostly been diagnosed later on in life who are gaining this understanding finally of their brains and who are finally understanding that they're not broken and they are wanting to be able to make amends and also break family cycles and look back at the way they were parented and how maybe they were treated and spoke to themselves and all these different kind of like mixes of lots of emotions and sadness and all of that.
Speaker A:And they are wanting to make big changes so they can live and thrive and actually sort of work with their brain and no longer be kind of totally derailed by it.
Speaker A:So I think that this, this pool analogy is fantastic.
Speaker A:I also wanted to ask you what you said earlier on about the beginning of your book.
Speaker A:And it has to be about, we have to take responsibility for ourselves.
Speaker A:We have to work on ourselves.
Speaker A:And actually it's a bit of a.
Speaker A:I mean, I wouldn't know if it's a taboo subject, but I really believe in this.
Speaker A:I think we have to take responsibility.
Speaker A:I think that, yes, we can discover we've got adhd and we can be like, oh, my goodness, why?
Speaker A:You know, how did I get through life?
Speaker A:And no one, you know, told me about it.
Speaker A:I've been misdiagnosed.
Speaker A:I've.
Speaker A:All this awful internal dialogue and I've had the external criticism and all of this, and it can be very much a woe is me victim like mentality, which I think is okay for a little while to sit in.
Speaker A:But I am a big believer that we do have to take responsibility and we have to make changes and work on self development, evolution and have a growth mindset.
Speaker A:Because I also know a lot of people who sadly just have this very rigid, stuck mindset and go, oh, you're reading another self development book.
Speaker A:Oh, you're doing another course.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Just get over it type thing.
Speaker A:And I wondered what you thought about that.
Speaker A:Like, when we find out we've got adhd.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Working on us, about working on ourselves.
Speaker B:So there's a process.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:I love the work you do with women because, you know, there a lot of the women come to you go, what could I have done in my life had I known this?
Speaker B:So we have to give them that grieving period.
Speaker B:They're grieving, and I love that you give that space for them.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:And then there's also time to go, all right, I'm gonna own my space.
Speaker B:And by the way, guys, I'm late to this game.
Speaker B:I am 56 years old at the time of this recording, and I'm still learning all this.
Speaker B:So when you talk, please don't think.
Speaker B:Please don't think I have anything together.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Likewise.
Speaker B:Yeah, this book was challenging for me to write and convicting for me to write.
Speaker B:But I do want to be the kind of person who owns her own energy.
Speaker B:And whether I like it or not, if I walk into the room and I have a sour attitude, that will rub off on other people.
Speaker B:Now, I could go, well, it shouldn't.
Speaker B:Well, too bad.
Speaker B:That's how humans are made.
Speaker B:So I need to take responsibility.
Speaker B:A lot of ADHD people, we have emotional dysregulation, and so sometimes we can sour on a day.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:This day just is horrible.
Speaker B:Well, okay.
Speaker B:But part taking responsibility is that will affect people around me, and that's okay.
Speaker B:You know, that doesn't mean you have to pretend to be happy.
Speaker B:That's not.
Speaker B:I'm not talking about inauthenticity.
Speaker B:I'm saying put yourself in time out, then do something to help you.
Speaker B:I think you use emotional freedom Tapping too.
Speaker B:I'll do that.
Speaker B:I'll do other things because I know sometimes I'm not good for people and sometimes I'll just say, hey, I'm in a hard space right now.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:This is kind of your warning and not warning like, I'm gonna hurt you, but just I want you to understand where I am.
Speaker B:I'm kind of not great right now, but that's still me taking responsibility.
Speaker B:And I love when people take responsibility in whole families.
Speaker B:Because what tends to happen in families is we just create all kinds of scapegoats and we create in and out groups.
Speaker B:We create everything like that.
Speaker B:So if we can get people in families taking appropriate response for each other.
Speaker B:Which kind of brings me to another term over functioning and under functioning, and I'm sure you've heard of these terms.
Speaker A:I'd love you to explain it even more for the listener.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Over functioning is when we do things for other people that they can really do for themselves.
Speaker B:Under functioning is when we're not doing things for ourselves that we could be doing for ourselves.
Speaker B:And so wherever there's an under functioner, a lot of times you'll see the over functioner.
Speaker B:Now that I say that, do you think of.
Speaker B:Can you think of examples that you've seen?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I'm just wondering if you see this example with the.
Speaker A:Maybe a non ADHD parent or a non ADHD partner.
Speaker A:With an ADHD partner.
Speaker B:Ah, yes.
Speaker B:Classic, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And so this is how this plays out.
Speaker B:Let's just pick on a wife who is ADHD and a husband, you know, they both work.
Speaker B:And the husband's like, why aren't you holding your own?
Speaker B:Like, you should be doing this.
Speaker B:We agreed you'd cook dinner on these days.
Speaker B:The wife's like, I just came home from work so exhausted, I just went to bed.
Speaker B:And husband's like, fine, I'll pick up the slack.
Speaker B:Now it.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:In relationships, we want to pick up the slack for each other, right?
Speaker B:We want to have that kind loving.
Speaker B:But it's the pattern of I'm always picking up the slack for you.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so then we have husband over functioning.
Speaker B:And then the wife's kind of like, well, this kind of feels good.
Speaker B:I'm going to keep under functioning because this is working for me.
Speaker B:And you see this dynamic everywhere.
Speaker B:And so, you know, when I coach parents, when I coach adult children working with their parents, I'm always saying, don't do for someone what they're able to do for themselves.
Speaker B:And they look at me like, I am the meanest person on earth.
Speaker B:They're like, well, can I bring them a glass of water if they ask me to, I'm like, I'm going to let you decide that.
Speaker B:But if it's part of a big pattern where you're doing things for them that they are able to do for themselves, that's, that's called over function.
Speaker A:I mean, I see this potentially happening.
Speaker A:So my husband is.
Speaker A:So my son has just turned 19 and he's just gone to university and I've been fretting about this.
Speaker A:He's also got ADHD and he is brilliant in so many ways.
Speaker A:But where he really struggles is his executive functioning and organization and timekeeping.
Speaker A:Um, and so as a mum who understands him and his brain and sees his ADHD and where it shows up, I am, I'm worried, I'm, I'm nervous about him going to university and having to manage his own time, manage his bedroom, his washing, keeping everything kind of meeting himself.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all of that, making sure he's actually going to classes and all of this.
Speaker A:And I think he's going to be okay, but it's probably better that I don't know all the details and he's going to have to figure it out.
Speaker A:Whereas my husband beforehand would go into his room and tidy his room and he would go and pick up his dirty clothes and put them in the washing machine and change his towels and things like that and remind him about his car, you know, MOT and insurance and all different things like that.
Speaker A:And part of me knows he's doing that because he's a great dad and he is helping.
Speaker A:But then the part of me that kind of understands the bigger picture is fearful that he is over functioning too much.
Speaker A:So his independence and so for him to be able to learn to do the things himself, you know, he can step up to the game a little bit.
Speaker A:But there is, I think that, I feel that there's quite a lot of this fear with parents whose older kids leave home and we've kind of been holding for, for them and then they leave home and we are maybe projecting our, you know, our family trauma where we've seen this people not make it and people really struggle and they've not made much and they've not lived up to their potentials and we're so worried about our kids, then they're not happening, so we kind of facilitate the whole thing.
Speaker A:And I wondered if you had any words of wisdom on that.
Speaker B:Oh boy, oh boy.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Well, I know you know this, but to remind your listeners, ADHD people mature at a different rate.
Speaker B:So it's about three years behind.
Speaker B:However, when people get into their 20s, sometimes I see the leg almost like a five year leg.
Speaker B:And so let's say, let's see how this works out, right?
Speaker B:You have a 20 year old and he's actually acting more like a 15 year old, but he's supposed to be at university.
Speaker B:And so parents are like, what is happening?
Speaker B:And so they get angry, they start to over function.
Speaker B:They call him every day, they start to manage from afar.
Speaker B:So it's true your child may not have the appropriate executive functions yet, but that doesn't mean we have to do it for them.
Speaker B:So I introduced the concept and again, this is a concept that has been around of rescue versus mastery.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Instead of rescuing, that's what over functioning is.
Speaker B:We want to teach our children to master.
Speaker B:I want to say master like in air quotes, guys, because your ADHD lesson isn't going to be able to master anything yet.
Speaker B:They're still learning, they haven't been on this earth that long and they have a brain that's a little clunky when it comes to executive functions.
Speaker B:So we're going to give them grace if they don't do the laundry at college the way we think it should be done, folded, put, put away properly.
Speaker B:It's done and it stays in the basket.
Speaker B:Let's call that a win, okay?
Speaker B:Because we're going to keep the picture on the big stuff.
Speaker B:So in the book I remind parents to go always.
Speaker B:Number one is look out for the relationship.
Speaker B:So you want a great relationship with your son that will last a lifetime.
Speaker B:You managing from afar is not going to get that relationship.
Speaker B:So you want to really work on relationship building during this time.
Speaker B:You live in a country where he's, he's safe enough, he can figure this out.
Speaker B:And you're going to put up guardrails.
Speaker B:Like you're not going to give him free rage to a credit card if he has problems spending money, Right?
Speaker B:You're not going to say you have all the resources.
Speaker B:I have a client whose parents just throw money at him.
Speaker B:And he spent over $10,000 on a party for his friends.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But they're mad at him because he's not doing well at school and like how much time did this party take to plan?
Speaker B:Do you get what I'm saying?
Speaker B:It's like put up the appropriate guardrails, right?
Speaker B:Not as punishment guardrails.
Speaker B:Then walk with, with your child in other Words.
Speaker B:Hey, do you.
Speaker B:Are you having problems doing laundry?
Speaker B:Do you want to talk about it, Mom?
Speaker B:I got it.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Just an offer, dear.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now some brilliant kids will go, yeah, I am having a problem with laundry, mom, and I just, I just wish you could come here and do it for me.
Speaker B:It's some moms, like, they're like, I'm in the car now.
Speaker B:You have an over functioner working on the over functioner.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm working on all of this.
Speaker A:I mean, he's only been in university for four days, to be fair.
Speaker A:So, yeah, we, we dropped him at the weekend and it was.
Speaker A:And I, and I had to tell my husband, actually, because he wanted to organize his room kind of for him.
Speaker A:And I, and I said he needs to be able to put all his stuff away and put.
Speaker A:You know, and if I'm honest, looking back, we probably did a little more than we needed to.
Speaker A:But I think we were both a little bit anxious that if we left him with this huge pile of clothes and boxes, that would be.
Speaker A:That would probably overwhelm him.
Speaker A:And I could see that he was, even though he was excited that he was.
Speaker A:He was also a bit jittery and there was a bit of anxiety there.
Speaker A:And so we just wanted him to feel, like, settled.
Speaker A:So between us, we did it.
Speaker A:And I think I feel better that I've left him in a room where we know where he knows where everything is and everything's kind of like organized for now.
Speaker A:And then it's up to him to, I hope, you know, hopefully keep some semblance of order.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, this is a new period and I'm excited to read, you know, your book properly so I can master some of this.
Speaker A:Because I don't want to over function.
Speaker B:Two things I just wanted, I heard from what your example is.
Speaker B:One, he's your oldest, right?
Speaker B:So he's what I call the first pancake.
Speaker B:If you've ever made pancakes, you never know how the first one's going to turn out.
Speaker B:Is the griddle too hot?
Speaker B:Do I have all the ingredients just right?
Speaker B:And the oldest kids, they have it the toughest.
Speaker B:I was the oldest.
Speaker B:I don't know about you, but I was the first pancake.
Speaker B:Your son's the first pancake.
Speaker B:This is your first time going off to college, right?
Speaker B:It has been four days.
Speaker B:You're like this boy who I've lived with all of his life, and I've known him since moments after he was born.
Speaker B:He's suddenly at college, and this is all Scary.
Speaker B:So I just want to respect the first pancake moment, that you've never been this far.
Speaker B:And so you probably did a great job and you did it with love.
Speaker B:And you, you said, I can see we shouldn't leave you in a room just to unpack because that's, by the way, that's not even nice.
Speaker B:He probably doesn't have the executive function skills or cares to do all that work.
Speaker B:So very lovingly you said, how about we help you on this one?
Speaker B:And so again, that's not over functioning.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I don't want to.
Speaker B:He's out in this new frontier.
Speaker B:You brought your first pancake to university and you're like, ah, just back out of this griddle.
Speaker B:I don't know if this is the right.
Speaker B:If it's the right temperature, the right ingredients.
Speaker B:What if it's too watery?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so I really encourage parents just to be kind to themselves.
Speaker B:It did.
Speaker B:Doesn't sound like you over function one bit.
Speaker B:It sounds like you were just present and supportive.
Speaker A:Yeah, I hope so.
Speaker B:And that's the goal.
Speaker B:That's the goal.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We want our kids to know they're loved and supported.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's really powerful.
Speaker B:Yeah, they have to show up.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's really powerful because I often get a lot of people set, you know, asking lots of parenting questions and all of that.
Speaker A:And I said, if in doubt, are you showing love?
Speaker A:Are you showing compassion and empathy?
Speaker A:Are you giving, Are you being present?
Speaker A:Are you.
Speaker A:Are you like talking to them every day?
Speaker A:And are you giving them space to have their meltdowns and all of that and not judging them and putting shame on them?
Speaker A:And said, if, if you're doing that, those are like, that's like 80% of the work.
Speaker A:And everything else is fantastic.
Speaker A:You know, all your amazing practical strategies.
Speaker A:That's just the layer, the layers on top.
Speaker A:Because so many, I mean, I know you mentioned about your upbringing.
Speaker A:So many people were brought up where there was all sorts going on, whether it was addiction, it was.
Speaker A:There was abuse, there was traumatic events, all because there was no understanding of neurodivergence.
Speaker A:And there was no articulation, no one could talk about their emotions.
Speaker A:Everything was suppressed.
Speaker A:And so now we're in this.
Speaker A:In this place where, okay, now we're understanding, we're kind of getting, you know, now that there's amazing people like you and centers and what you're doing and all your resources and people are going, oh, okay, so that wasn't my fault.
Speaker A:This isn't my Fault and like, I'm really excited about the future now because if there's.
Speaker A:The foundations of love.
Speaker A:Are there the foundations of like.
Speaker B:I so agree with you deeply.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm sorry, please keep going on.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker B:So agree with you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then, then we can work out the rest.
Speaker A:We can, we can work that out.
Speaker B:That's exactly, that's exactly what I say.
Speaker B:I hope that message is what comes through in the book.
Speaker B:I mean, yes, we have to, we have to manage ourselves.
Speaker B:We have to learn about our swimming pools.
Speaker B:I have a whole chapter on the ADHD monkeys that live in our head.
Speaker B:Like, we have to do all of this.
Speaker B:At the end of the day, we have to learn to love each other better.
Speaker B:And I, I knew that when I had kids.
Speaker B:I, I didn't have many role models.
Speaker B:I was the first one in among my friend group to have kids.
Speaker B:So I didn't know how to do anything.
Speaker B:I knew one thing, my kids would not feel unloved.
Speaker B:And I've screwed up so many times as a parent and yet all my kids were at the launched last night.
Speaker B:We had fun together.
Speaker B:We love each other, we could, we support each other.
Speaker B:We're really here for each other.
Speaker B:So I, that's, that's just the beautiful reason we have families.
Speaker B:They're our first support networks.
Speaker B:Now, I do want to say something to your listeners who might be listening.
Speaker B:Go.
Speaker B:I have a really crappy family.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I want you to know, like, I understand that and I have felt that too.
Speaker B:But you can still make a family.
Speaker B:You can have chosen families.
Speaker B:So let's say your family of origin is just not good for you.
Speaker B:You're unattached.
Speaker B:You don't have children.
Speaker B:You don't, you still don't have to be alone.
Speaker B:You can make a chosen family and you can invest and deeply love people who want that same kind of relationship with you.
Speaker B:So I just want to encourage people.
Speaker B:Even if you got dealt the short, short stick.
Speaker B:I don't know if that's the saying, but yeah, that's it.
Speaker B:Yeah, you can still do this.
Speaker A:I think that's a really powerful caveat because like you say, and I think often we're heard and we're told, you know, blood's thicker than water and no matter what.
Speaker A:And interesting.
Speaker A:I had a client today who's, you know, parents are.
Speaker A:I would say one of them is bordering on narcissistic.
Speaker A:And there's lots of parentification going on and it's just really not healthy.
Speaker A:And there was, there's a Lack of boundaries and everything.
Speaker A:And I said to her that you don't have to be at their beck and call.
Speaker A:Like, that's okay.
Speaker A:You are allowed to make your own life and your own family, and you don't have to be part of this family, you know, all the time.
Speaker A:And what you said then about you, you know, being the first per.
Speaker A:I was the same.
Speaker A:You know, I had kids really young.
Speaker A:I was 25, and none of my friends were having babies, but it was.
Speaker A:That was my.
Speaker A:The same mantra.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:I kind of want to do things differently to where I was parented and how my family was, because I know that I was loved, but it wasn't the most.
Speaker A:It wasn't the best environment to be brought up in.
Speaker A:And I wanted to make a difference.
Speaker A:And so, like, I was just saying, I was just totally clueless.
Speaker A:But all I knew is, is as long as I just love my kids, hopefully all the mistakes I was going to make won't be too terrible.
Speaker B:Love covers all.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:I just think it's so powerful.
Speaker B:And I love that you and I have similar stories.
Speaker B:Sometimes people ask, do you hate your parents?
Speaker B:Do you?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:They're part of my story.
Speaker B:They made me who I was.
Speaker B:And, yeah, I left.
Speaker B:I left that family of origin with a lot of scars and a lot of deep wounds.
Speaker B:That's still my 50s.
Speaker B:I'm like, oh, whoopsies, there's a wound.
Speaker B:But you know what?
Speaker B:I have compassion for them.
Speaker B:I write in the forward that, you know, my mom was a divorced woman in the 70s trying to bring up two girls on her own.
Speaker B:She was emotionally unregulated, and that.
Speaker B:That damaged a lot of parts of me.
Speaker B:But you know what?
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:I don't think she would want to be like that to me.
Speaker B:And so I have a lot of compassion.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I don't have any relationships with either parent, but it's okay.
Speaker B:And I just.
Speaker B:I'm saying this to your listener because some listeners might still be angry about it, and that's okay.
Speaker B:That's a stage two.
Speaker B:Just like when women find out that they have adhd, we have to let the grief go through.
Speaker B:Sometimes children think about their.
Speaker B:Their families of origin.
Speaker B:They're angry.
Speaker B:It's okay.
Speaker B:That's just.
Speaker B:That's what you're going through right now.
Speaker B:Don't be afraid of it.
Speaker B:And then on the other side of that is compassion.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And also the fact that you have obviously invested so much of your emotional energy into Being a parent and parenting and hopefully creating a dynamic where like you say, your four kids, you're at your book launch and there's love there.
Speaker A:I'm sure there's like, you drive each other a bit crazy sometimes as well, but there is always, there's that deep love and respect there.
Speaker A:And I think that's something what everybody wants from their, from their family.
Speaker A:And, you know, I think your book is going to be such a huge help to so many people who maybe don't have access to family therapy or counseling.
Speaker A:And like you say, we're also just have got deep wounds from their own, own family and don't want to carry those wounds on and you know, like poison, poison their new families with their sort of unhealed wounds.
Speaker A:So I just want to thank you so much for all your work, Tamara.
Speaker A:I think, you know, you do such incredible, incredible work and so much help in the community of people processing and understanding their ADHD and then moving forward and thriving and that's, that's what we all deserve.
Speaker A:So thank you.
Speaker B:Well, thank you for the work you're doing.
Speaker B:You're doing amazing work and I'm so.
Speaker B:I hope you hear this with a heart.
Speaker B:I intended.
Speaker B:I'm so proud of you.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker B:And proud of the work you've done and what you've started.
Speaker B:And you're just, you're doing a great job.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I really appreciate that.
Speaker A:And if anybody wants to buy your book, your new book, you, me and our ADHD family, it's available, I presume.
Speaker B:Everywhere, anywhere books are sold.
Speaker A:I just keep it super general and super easy.
Speaker B:Anywhere books are sold.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the same with your other book as well.
Speaker A:Your brain's not broken.
Speaker A:Same.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:And Tamara, I just wanted to say it's been amazing to have you back on the podcast and I hope for all the other books that are going to be coming out, you'll come back and we can talk even more and share your knowledge.
Speaker A:So thank you so much.
Speaker B:I'll come back anytime.
Speaker B:You are always a joy to talk with.
Speaker A:I really hope you enjoyed this week, week's episode.
Speaker A:If you did and it resonated with you, I would absolutely love it if you could share on your platforms or maybe leave a review and a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Speaker A:And please do check out my website, adhdwomenswellbeing.co.uk for lots of free resources and paid for workshops.
Speaker A:I'm uploading new things all the time and I would absolutely love to see you there.
Speaker A:Take care and see for the next episode.
