Breaking Cultural Stigmas: ADHD in the Black Community

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:34

Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:37

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids, and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:02:50

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:00

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:15

Here's today's episode.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:03:21

We're here to talk about all aspects of ADHD and neurodivergence and today is very much no different.

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I'm absolutely delighted to welcome my guest, Abigail Adjaye Jones.

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And Abigail is an award winning policy and strategy advisor, diversity, equity and inclusion champion, community builder, and a neurodiversity advocate.

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She has over 10 years experience and is known for her work in amplifying underserved voices and fostering an inclusive culture.

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ntial neurodivergent women in: 2022

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She's a passionate and engaging speaker and Abigail has delivered talks globally, including her Not TEDX talk.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:05

Yes, black women have ADHD too and need your attention.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:09

I watched it Abigail, it was fantastic and I have to say I literally want to salute you for doing that because it is, it looks terrifying.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:17

So welcome to the podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:19

Hopefully this will be a much less terrifying experience than a TEDx talk.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:04:24

Thank you so much.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:04:25

Thank you so much for having me.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:04:26

I love your podcast.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:04:27

And yeah, like I always say, tedxes are not, they're not the most ADHD friendly environment trying to memorize.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:04:33

I look I'm still yet to part of the rsd, probably watch it to the end but I do remember like struggling to memorize it and just winging bits of it from what I could remember.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:04:44

But yeah, it was definitely.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:45

Well it was brilliant.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:47

It was, it was brilliant.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:48

And I have to say I was watching you and I was thinking why do they not have an autocue?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:53

Why is there not like a prompting kind of thing?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:04:56

Like there's no way I would have been able to stand there and I can talk and riff about ADHD for ages but if you told me to memorize it and process it, my working memory and it just shows, doesn't it?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:08

It's just another example of, you know, like when kids are at school and they're judged on memory with their GCSes and dates and stats and all of that and you could be the most intelligent person in the world, but if your working memory is different, you perceived as a failure.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:26

And I just wondered, I mean, let's start with the TEDx talk.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:29

Did you ask them, did you say to them this is not working with my the way my brain likes to work?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:05:34

And how did they kind of come back?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:05:36

Yeah, and I think sometimes you realize that you're still kind of battalizing sometimes your own like internalized ableism.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:05:44

Because in the process I did kind of touch on it in the beginning and then I told myself I'm going to push myself to do this and I look back and I'm like, well why would you do that?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:05:51

You talk about wanting to create more neuro inclusive working environments.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:05:54

It's okay.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:05:55

So I feel like sometimes there is still that internalized ableism that you want to try and do things along with other people.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:00

So it was touched and they were like, no, we don't really, we do try and encourage people to memorize it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:05

And I think for so long I was so focused on like doing all the research and put it all together that I didn't really think about that bit.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:11

So it was kind of like in my head I will get to that and I'll find a way to memorize it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:14

And then when I got to that, but I thought no, this is actually you're doing a bit of disservice to yourself.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:19

So I kind of towards the end was just kinder to myself and thought, you know what you kind of, as long as you know the main structures and points you want to hear, if you mess up a bit, it's okay, you can incorporate and make a bit of a joke, which I think I kind of did at the beginning that yeah, this isn't the most adhd, this isn't the best for someone with adhd, you know, working memory organization trying to do this but give it a go.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:39

So I think it's something I wish I did probably push a bit more but I know a few people have done and I'm always interested to hear often neurodivergent people their experiences because yeah, I think it definitely should be encouraged and it should.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:50

Yeah.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:06:50

If we're trying to create and we're sending messages and tedxes are supposed to be, you know, show an important message, then we should make them as inclusive for people as possible.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:06:59

Yeah, because obviously you clearly Knew your stuff, the passion was there and everything.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:04

And I mean I always kind of think about my kids and where they are and how the education system is not supporting neurodivergent kids even now.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:14

And I talk about GCSes all the time and how it's just a complete mirror to how broken the education system is because you know, that is reflective on where the kids stay at school, whether they have the confidence and the self esteem to then kind of go, you know what?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:29

I'm capable of A levels, I'm capable of university education.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:33

But if they can't do eight to 10 subjects, whatever it is at GCSE and memorize all the things and retain the information and not get overwhelmed and all of that, then that's where their education kind of stops.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:47

And we know that there's a much higher ratio of children, I guess, that leave school at 16 with ADHD and don't fulfill their potential.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:07:55

And I guess even more so in the marginalized communities where, you know, let's, let's talk about it in the black community.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:02

I know that you say that there's still a stigma there, there's still a lack of awareness and understanding of potentially what ADHD is.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:08:09

Maybe you can tell me a little bit about your experience because I'd be so interested to hear it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:15

Thank you.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:15

Yes, you're right.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:16

Everything you said is totally correct and I think that's why it's so important to have conversations like this because you're right.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:21

We are still, I think often working in environments that just aren't conducive and benefit all people.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:27

And I always say creating more neuro inclusive working environments benefit everybody because it's just thinking about ways we can make things easier for all.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:33

And I think when I reflect back on my.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:35

So I got like a lot of us, especially women got my ADHD diagnosis much later on in life.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:39

And I definitely reflect back on school and doing generally well in subjects I was really passionate about.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:44

And I had an understanding for kind of more the creatives, English, history, if there was, if I could find that niche or interest, I really captured my mind.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:54

But other subjects I was never really good at science.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:57

My mom always said I was quite good at math until it got to a certain point.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:08:59

And my mom said she feels like I always over complicated things.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:02

She always thought the simplest of things I would find like hard and then things that she couldn't get her mind around.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:08

So I don't know if it was just a different way that my mind worked, but I definitely reflect back on kind of looking and looking at school, reports of, yes, Abigail kind of being chatty, but always asking lots of questions.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:21

I think that's just because of how my mind worked.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:23

And, yeah, Abigail kind of just needs to kind of be a bit more still.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:26

Her mind is always wandering.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:27

She's always thinking about different things, always asking those different questions.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:31

I think there's a lot of that kind of inquisitiveness that in women can kind of being seen more as a personality trait.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:36

She's kind of scatty.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:37

She's just a disorganized.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:39

If she could just kind of be a bit more still focused, she could do more.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:42

So I feel like there was definitely history in school of kind of feeling like I'm just missing out on my potential a bit.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:49

So I think that definitely came up a lot.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:50

And then I think university was where I really found things challenging.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:54

So I definitely found things challenging in kind of secondary school.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:57

And I think I tended to always just miss out.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:09:59

So I missed out on the university I wanted to go to.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:02

And I think now look back, it's because it was the testing that I often think I found more challenging.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:06

So I'd find things really interesting, but under test conditions.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:10

And I didn't know that I had dyspepsia, ADHD at the time.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:12

I think I often had a real challenge with finishing exams in the time, or I could at one point do.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:18

I think there's always that inconsistency.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:19

One point I would do well and then I could totally misread something.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:23

So university, where I decided to do a law degree, again, I think more of the cultural things.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:28

I think coming from a British Ghanaian background, you're often taught that it has to be a career.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:34

So I was really interested in like, history and politics and I considered doing that at uni.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:38

My mum was like, oh, but you thought about law.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:40

I was always passionate about kind of human rights.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:43

So my mom was like, oh, we would talk about things and I thought I wanted to be human rights lawyer.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:47

So mum was like, well, why don't you do a law degree?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:49

Which I think I found very challenging at uni.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:51

I think the amount of information to read, to understand.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:55

I really struggled in university at that stage.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:57

That was.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:10:58

I was really struggling with, yeah, the level of work, the amount of research, like all that area.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:11:03

So I think that's where there was really those challenges.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:11:06

And even looking back at school and university, I think there was definitely a history of often looking around and feeling like, why is it taking me?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:11:13

So I feel Like, I'm putting just as much effort into things and more effort.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:11:17

I feel like I'm staying up later or I'm trying to do this, and it just seems to be coming easier to people, and I can never really understand why.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:11:24

So I think, yeah, getting that diagnosis later on in life definitely helped me understand that there's different ways my brain works and there's different ways I do things.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:11:32

And that's okay, because I think when you don't have that understanding, you're constantly trying to do things the way other people are doing it and not understanding why it's not working for you in the same way.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:41

Yeah, absolutely.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:42

And I guess did anyone during school ever flag up that there was some kind of, like, learning difference or did anyone ever say, oh, you might need some extra time, or check in with your parents?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:11:54

Like, was there any form of kind of insinuation that you might need some extra support?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:11:59

No, I think there was always just kind of element of, she maybe needs to just push herself a bit more.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:05

It's like there was always a feeling of like, maybe the foundations are there.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:08

But I think there was more of a thinking of, she's not trying hard enough.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:11

Maybe it's because she's being too talkative, she's asking too many questions.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:15

I think it was that was looked kind of as a negative and not maybe understanding that.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:18

Why does she ask these questions?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:20

Why are there challenges and understanding things?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:22

It wasn't until.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:23

So I got my dyspraxia diagnosis in university, and that was from another person I was at university with who had dysfraction.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:30

They thought.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:31

I think we just generally were having discussions I couldn't write about.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:33

I couldn't do a lot of these things.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:34

And she's like, I think you might be like, I'm dyspraxian.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:37

I think you might be dyspraxic.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:39

I remember speaking to this person who was like, yeah, your posture, you can't ride a bike, you struggle with your left to right all this stuff.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:45

And then your essays and stuff.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:46

I think it might be dyspraxia.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:48

So that's when I went to university and was like, yeah, this dyspraxia word has come up from someone.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:53

What is this?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:54

Something to look into.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:54

And then that's when they were able to kind of get somebody to speak to me.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:12:58

And I got a dyspraxia diagnosis in university and then ADHD much later on.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:13:02

But prior to that, no, there'd never been anything talked about that made me think there was any Further support needed.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:10

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:11

So it's.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:11

What's really interesting is that what we know now is that, you know, any of these neurodevelopmental differences don't travel alone.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:18

They always travel with a partner, with a friend, obviously.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:22

It's like a co driver, co rider.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:24

And it just depends.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:25

You can have quite a few in the back or one or two.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:27

Depends who's driving.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:28

And it depends who's got, like, the foot on the pedal.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:31

And that's kind of like how I see all these different types of neurodiversity is that your dyspraxia may have just been a bit louder at the time, and it might have just been more prominent.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:41

And then different times in our life, like, the ADHD then takes over and we find a way to kind of like, manage the dyspraxia.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:13:49

And I see it, listen, with myself, with my family, like, all the different things, whether it's dyspraxia, dyscalculia, dyslexia, there's always like a bedfellow with the adhd, with other things like OCD as well, and anxiety.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:03

And when we understand it, it kind of normalizes it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:06

And I try really hard to have these kind of conversations with my kids where, you know, my daughter, one of them, the other day came home and she, bless her, is like, very gangly, long arms, long legs.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:19

And she.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:20

I got her assessed for dyslexia maybe when she was like, six, I don't know, five or six.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:24

And it kind of came back inconclusive because some ways it did show up.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:14:30

Yes.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:30

Some ways it didn't.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:32

But she's always been really clumsy and, like, she's blessed.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:36

She's made her joke out of it, but I know sometimes it does.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:39

There is shame there.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:40

And she said the other day she fell down the stairs at school with her friends.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:45

And my little heart, like, just wanted to.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:47

I was, like, so sad.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:48

But she was sort of laughing and she showed me her knee and it was all cut open.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:52

And obviously she scrambled up and picked up a bag and everything, and her friends kind of like, picked her up and they were laug.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:14:59

But I know in her there was probably some internalized shame there where she's like, why can't I walk down the stairs and not trip over my feet?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:05

Or, you know, that type of thing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:07

And so I try and explain that to him, say, well, you do know there's, like, dyspraxia there.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:11

Because even though it didn't come back conclusive, we do know it's There.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:15

And when you have these conversations and you just sort of say it as it is, or when there's things like now with your ADHD and how you're able to have that awareness and reflect and say, right, that's what I do find really difficult.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:28

And that was a real challenge for me, me.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:31

And it may be if a teacher had turned around and said, you know, there's a reason why you struggle under pressure, but you're really good when you're asking lots of questions and processing it verbally and.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:42

And I think with ADHD people, we really do process things really well verbally, which is why I think during these kind of conversations in a podcast, we can really get into the nitty gritty.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:15:51

Exactly.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:52

There's like self reflection moments.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:15:55

But I guess going back to your passion and where you advocate within the black community, what is going on that is different to what I experience as a white person?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:16:07

Why is there still less understanding, less awareness and I guess less support and advocacy?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:16:14

I'd love to hear from what you're hearing, you're seeing and maybe what you've experienced as well.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:19

Yeah, I think there's a number of things, I think, and when that kind of those intersectional elements come.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:26

So we know the experiences and challenges that women can often have with adhd, neurological conditions and the differences and then adding that element.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:33

With black women, when I was doing a lot of my research, a lot of things came up and I think that do often can start from a young age.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:40

So I think black women did more likely to have a late diagnosis or misdiagnosis.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:44

And when I was doing a lot of the research, I'm reflecting on kind of my own experiences, something called adultification comes up quite a lot.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:51

So adultification of black girls and black boys.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:54

And it's this element of kind of.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:55

Of young people being seen as older than they are and being treated as older.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:16:59

And it was really interesting when I was doing a lot of research and kind of looking into reports and reflecting on some of my own experience, sometimes in school as well, is sometimes black girls and black boys are more likely to be expelled from school than kind of white counterparts.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:17:16

And something that came up when I was kind of looking at reports, especially by an organization called Agenda, they were saying things that would come up and what they were hearing back is black girls and children kind of being treated older or that they need kind of less support.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:17:29

And things that will come up is when they are kind of needing more support, they kind of seem being seen more as disruptive.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:17:35

So Sometimes I think because of that adultification, that kind of being seen as older.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:17:40

And we see in the criminal justice system where black children and black people more likely to be seen as older and get harsher treatment, sometimes when you're seen as more adult, like you're not really treated as a child that needs that support.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:17:52

So that's something that was really interesting when I was doing a lot of that research.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:17:56

I think there's also a lot of stigmatization, fear of stigmatization for black families.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:01

So I think there is a history in the education and healthcare system.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:07

There can be quite a fraught relationship with black communities.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:10

So I know that for instance, black children mentioning that kind of more likely to be expelled, there's tendencies to have kind of more negative experiences with educational and health systems that can make it that fear of being stigmatized.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:24

You don't want your child to be seen as lazy or bad.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:27

So sometimes there's that fear of kind of being associated with any labels.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:30

And that's something I've definitely heard before.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:33

I was recently doing a panel talk with the Ghanaian association of Social Workers and it was really interesting to hear some of their experiences.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:39

And they were talking about working closely with communities.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:42

And then kind of when they do say that they think, oh, your child might need more support, might be dyslexic, have adhd, dyspraxia.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:48

There's that real fear of, I don't want my child to be labeled as stupid or have more problems.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:53

They're already kind of dealing with racism in situations.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:55

I don't want them to kind of have more labels, they're deemed as negative.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:18:58

So I think that's something that kind of can come up as well, which is really interesting to hear as well.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:05

And I think some of the few other things that can also come up is just that sometimes when you are from a black minority or immigrant background, that kind of working twice as hard narrative is really instilled in you.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:16

And I definitely reflect on that.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:18

And I think not intentionally, but I think my parents were always kind of like, no, we see that you're a smart child and you are a hard working child.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:24

You just, you are, you know, you're from a black background.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:27

You're especially.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:28

I moved to Essex at quite a young age, so I was used to being in backgrounds where I'd often be one of the only black children in class.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:33

So I think sometimes you'd be taught that you have to work twice as hard, things are going to be more challenging, you have to push yourself harder so you're often just thinking, well, that's maybe what I need to do.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:42

So sometimes I would think that I must not be working hard enough.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:44

Maybe that's what it is.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:45

And things are going to be challenging and maybe teachers are going to be harsher on me because I'm different.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:50

So I just have to prove myself.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:51

So I think that's something I reflect on.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:53

And I didn't realize that I did need more support.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:19:56

And I was having challenges tying my shoelaces and I was kind of having challenges, my coordination and asking more questions to get a better understanding.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:04

I was doing that to learn more.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:06

But sometimes you can feel a bit more like you don't.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:09

You want to kind of assimilate.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:10

I think that's really taught, especially when you're from a minority background, you want to assimilate with everyone else and try.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:15

So sometimes you're thinking, okay, maybe that's it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:17

I just need to try and fit in.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:20

And I think that can be linked to that fear of labels.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:23

I think the other things, especially for a lot of black women, when I'm having conversations and especially when I did work in the Department of Health, that was something that constantly come up is there's a lot of health care disparities.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:32

So then there's a lot of barriers to access for black women, access to quality care.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:38

There have been reports that kind of shown that black women are more likely to deal with challenges of cultural competency and systematic racism.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:45

So I think that can be a lot of challenges and especially engagement with a lot of communities.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:49

I do a lot of work with ADHD babes.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:51

It is an amazing organization that helps black women and non binary women.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:55

I think Viv has been on here, hasn't she?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:20:57

Yeah, she's been on the podcast.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:58

Yeah.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:20:58

So I think when we're talking in those groups, yeah, it was amazing.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:01

I love working with them.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:02

And I think a lot that kind of comes up is that there's.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:06

They really have to advocate for themselves.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:08

And there's a lot of kind of really being conscious that when you're in these spaces, you don't want to be deemed as an angry black woman.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:14

You really want to share your experiences.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:16

But there can be that distrust in the medical health system and.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:20

And there can also be those challenges when you are trying to advocate that.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:23

Oh, are you sure it's that?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:24

And I think when going through work first and tell them that I thought I might have adhd, I think helped me because I was able to not get official diagnosis, but a workplace assessment That I think helped me go to my gp and I kind of had something.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:39

There was still kind of a lot of you seem to have done well in school.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:41

Are you sure it's not anxiety?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:43

And all these things can be part of it, but they're often exacerbated because that original ADHD diagnosis isn't in place.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:49

So I feel like, yeah.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:50

And I've heard a lot of women's experiences where it's kind of, especially about women, really been dismissed.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:54

And it's been a lot of challenges and kind of really feeling like they have to advocate for themselves.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:21:59

I can think that's some of the challenges that definitely come up.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:03

Wow.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:04

I mean, I'm hearing what it sounds like.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:06

It sounds incredibly exhausting.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:09

But also what you're fighting against is, like, this deeper systemic racism.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:14

There's trauma there.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:15

There's inherited trauma.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:16

It's generational.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:17

And you're battling something alongside the neurodivergence, like, as a white person, as a white woman's experience, it's deeply exhausting.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:26

We're masking, which, like you say, we're trying to fit in.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:29

We're wondering, why does life feel harder for us when we're looking around and everyone else seems to kind of, like, have the handbook?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:35

And we're just like, why?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:36

Why do we feel different?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:37

Why are we not understanding or processing things the same?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:40

And then for yourself, another black women's experience.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:45

I wish there was more representation.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:47

You know, I probably have done so many workshops, but I would say the proportion of black women who come onto my workshop is probably, you know, very small.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:22:57

And I often wonder, and I think, is it because of me?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:00

Is it because of what I represent?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:02

Or is it because not enough black women are understanding their ADHD or understanding that it's there?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:09

Or is it just a blend of lots of things where they have just kind of know that they've got to keep a lid on everything and they've got to keep quiet and not, you know, cause too much fuss because, like you say, they're working twice as hard to just excel, succeed, be part of, like, society without having to.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:28

I don't know.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:29

There's so many cultural pressures and the systemic racism, and I kind of think, how can we make this easier?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:35

How can we have this conversation where ADHD spans across all communities?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:42

And I've had this conversation with the Asian communities, Jewish communities, black communities, and it has to be like an open forum so women can feel that they can speak within their communities and feel safe, but also help other people as well.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:23:59

You know, talk about neurodivergences.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:01

So it's not a stigma.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:02

I mean, even I was diagnosed four years ago, and for the first two years of my diagnosis, I was.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:10

There was still, even though I was helping lots of other women, I wasn't speaking publicly about it in I guess, my community and with my friends and family.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:20

It still felt very shameful.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:23

And yeah, I still get it to this day.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:25

Like, you don't look like you should have adhd or like why you're really well educated or you have got a family and your house looks really tidy and just all these different kind of misrepresentations of what ADHD looks like in women and girls.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:24:43

And so we have to just break down these taboos and have these conversations.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:26:55

I'd love to talk to you about the healthcare disparity and what happens, because I know and again, forgive me if this is not 100% correct, but there's a horrific statistic of black women are more likely to die in childbirth than white women.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:27:10

Where would that come from?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:12

Yeah, I think it's a mix.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:13

At one point it was five times more likely.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:17

And that's where there's this amazing organization that does a lot of work on that that called 5x more.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:21

Now I think it's gone down to 3.5, but still shocking figures.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:25

And I think my understanding of a lot of things I think come out from that is I think one sometimes that culturally competent care.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:33

So I think there's sometimes still not an understanding of different people's experiences, especially from minority backgrounds.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:40

I know for a long time there was a range of misconceptions.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:43

And I remember I had friends who was nurses who were saying it was only until recently some of their textbooks didn't say things such as there was a thinking that black women could handle pain more.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:53

So a lot of kind of really ignorant kind of thinking.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:56

And she said she remembers her early studying.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:27:58

Some of this stuff was still alluded to in textbooks.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:01

So I think there's still a lot of that thinking that they can handle pain more sometimes that fear.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:06

Back to our saying kind of being deemed as angry.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:08

So it can be a catch 22 of sometimes you're kind of being silenced to or not really being heard and you're really having to advocate for yourself.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:14

Sometimes you're being dismissed.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:16

I think there's some of that fear.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:18

And yeah, I think there is a lot of expectation and something else, a framework that I found really interesting.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:24

I think it's called superwoman schema.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:26

So it's this cult.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:27

The idea of these cultural expectations are often placed on black women to kind of have it all together to be nurtured, to be domesticated, to kind of be there for everyone means that they often are sacrificing their own well being and own care.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:41

So I think that can be something where there's such the outside world can be looking at them and placing all these expectations on them and they can be placing it on themselves as well.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:51

So I think it can be a real mix of things and I think that happens in a lot of places where we often see that disparity.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:28:57

So that's why I'm always thinking, yeah, it's so important for the advocacy work and those more to have those more community groups and organizations like 5X, more like ADHD babes do amazing work to encourage black women and non binary people to advocate for themselves more in ways that they can.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:29:15

And but I think there also needs to be a lot more people and communities, health practitioners and education practitioners, really kind of analyzing their own policies and making sure that they're kind of culturally competent and they are thinking about people from all marginalized communities experiences.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:29:29

So I think, yeah, I think that's some of it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:29:31

And I think we definitely need to see things more black mental health practitioners and more black psychiatrists and more from diverse backgrounds as well.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:29:40

Because just like it affects black people like you've mentioned, you see in Asian communities, you see in the LGBT community are more likely to kind of get that diagnosis.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:29:47

So that intersectionality really does happen.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:29:51

And when we are kind of getting more of an understanding, it does help, I think all communities.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:29:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:29:56

for, you know, by generation: 2010

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:12

So like you say, it's this sort of like top down filteration that's still not quite there.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:17

And I think, you know, maybe the generation now that is, you know, going through, you know, medical school training, all of that, there is definitely more diversity and we're seeing, but we're not seeing it fast enough and it's not filtering through.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:30

Like you say, if you're a black person that wants to hear from a black psychiatrist and understand ADHD through that lens and through that filter and sort of like you say, all the cultural connotations and nuances that maybe a white psychiatrist just wouldn't understand because it's not been their experience.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:47

But They've also not been taught, it's not in the textbooks.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:50

So they've only got one lens and one filter to go through.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:30:54

The very same way, you know, ADHD is only, you know, was only typically seen as in boys and men, you know, like up until very recently.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:03

So we're then having to.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:04

There's a whole gender thing that's going on now with adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:08

And then if you've sort of bringing in the race and the culture side, unfortunately we're not going to be hearing it from, from the professionals.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:16

And thankfully, we have people like you advocating and going on podcasts and doing TED talks and going in and trying to train people within organizations.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:24

And we're all.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:26

Anyone that's listening to this now kind of takes this mantle, hopefully, that everyone does, to advocate wherever they are, whether it's, you know, in their family, whether it's in school.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:37

And we have this role, unfortunately, we may or may not want it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:42

But until society changes, until there's an unfortunately, I think it is going to be another big long generation.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:49

We just have to kind of do what we can do within our little environments, our communities.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:54

That ripple effect.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:31:55

So whether it's in a church or it's in a school or it's in an organization, or it's in a Girl Scout group, you know, I was.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:32:06

My daughter's part of a netball club and I spoke to the head of the netball club and there must be a couple of hundred girls who play netball.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:32:14

And I said, has anyone ever come in and spoken about neurodiversity and adhd?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:32:19

She's like, no, but we probably should.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:32:20

I was like, I can guarantee you if these girls are playing netball and they're training two or three times a week and they're really, they love it, there's going to be a high proportion of girls who are kind of channeling their ADHD through sport and getting, you know, and so this is what I'm talking about is like, wherever, you know, there's a high proportion of girls from whatever community, it's like, get out there and be that advocate because no one else is doing it for us.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:32:47

And I think that's what's been, I think, so brilliant to see, I think especially in the community, especially seeing a lot of women and of people from every minority background.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:32:54

I think that's what's been so good about social media.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:32:57

And I know there can be a lot of people can worry about disinformation.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:33:00

I think social media, podcasts, spaces like this really give people avenues to Share their experience, to advocate and to make people aware.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:33:08

And I think that's why I've enjoyed it kind of being in panels and that's why I do so much work kind of.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:33:13

And I've been really looking at lately in church, like you said, Christianity plays a huge part in the black community.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:33:18

So I have been looking a lot of things about how I can really get people to understand in church because there can be that fear with Christianity and kind of mental health and all these things like where we do have these spaces and access.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:33:28

I think it is so important to kind of advocate and to make people aware and to create that support.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:33:34

So I think, yeah, that's what's been good.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:33:36

That I think a lot of this groundwork we're doing now can feel small, but in the long run I think is helping create awareness on a bigger scale.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:33:44

I wonder about that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:33:45

When you talk about Christianity in the black communities and there's obviously traditional roles that are seen and we know that Sari Soldon talked about this back in the early 90s and she called them she messages.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:33:58

And that is what we hold from a conditioning perspective.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:02

Like women's roles should in inverted commas should be the homekeepers, the caretakers, the parents, the cooks, the cleaners, the this or that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:13

And when we can't fulfill that role, then we have.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:17

That's like a negative impact on our self esteem and our confidence.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:19

And then other people see us and then like you say, it's like a negative trait.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:23

There's something that's wrong with us because if she can't keep her home organized or she forgets things, then what kind of mother is she?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:31

And I wonder if that is something quite systemic as well in the black community.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:34:36

If you have to kind of have it all together from a domestic perspective.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:34:40

Yes, I think definitely.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:34:42

And I think like you're saying that's where I think a lot of those societal and cultural expectations, I know coming from a background, especially being British, Ghanaian, something, some of those challenges I've definitely faced and you feel a lot of shame and is the idea that, yeah, you're taught that you have to be domesticated and as a black British guardian woman, domesticated, a nurturer, kind of take care of everybody.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:03

And when you feel like you're not fulfilling all of that, there can be a lot of that shame.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:07

And you're taught, yeah.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:08

That you, you just have to, like I mentioned earlier on, kind of work twice as hard, things are going to kind of be harder.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:13

You've kind of got to Deal with it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:14

So I think there can be a lot of that shame of feeling like you're not doing enough or why is it more challenging?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:20

And there can be a lot of that shame, which is why I think especially having.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:23

So having those community groups and support groups is so important to hear other women who are from a similar background to you.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:30

And I definitely, when I look back, especially working in the civil service for the number of years I did, I did thoroughly enjoy it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:36

But I, when I first got that ADHD diagnosis, there was a part of that kind of internalized ableism and shame that thought, oh, this is like another label now.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:44

I'm already kind of a black young woman.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:46

There's not many people who look like me working in this space.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:49

I know I have to work hard.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:50

And now if I bring this other label, is there more shame?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:53

Is there going to be more barriers?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:54

So there's a lot of that kind of internalized kind of thinking and shame that can sit with you.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:35:59

That I think, why is support so important?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:36:01

To kind of have that culturally competent support and have more of an understanding that your brain works in a different way?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:36:07

This is, you know, you can thrive with this.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:36:09

You shouldn't have to just survive.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:36:11

It's just about kind of understanding more the strategies.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:36:14

And yes, there's going to be challenges and there are challenges, but there are different ways to do things, and you do have strengths within that.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:36:20

So I think it's really important to understand that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:24

Yeah, I think it's really powerful for you to be able to say that and say as it is, that, yeah, like, actually, it's not fair.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:31

Why should I have another label?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:32

Why should I have something else to contend with?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:34

You know, life feels hard enough as it is, as, say, an immigrant family or having to do that, work twice as hard and have all these expectations improve and having to prove yourself over and over again, but then move from that place where it can feel that you can sort of stay in that maybe, like, resentment to like, okay, how can I find a place of empowerment?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:36:56

How can I find the strength and the strategies and the support and find a place where I can talk about this and it doesn't feel shameful?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:37:05

And I guess that moves me on to my next question is what if someone's listening to this right now and they find that they have had to mask a lot more and they've not been able to talk about it due to stigmas or they've not really been able to have this kind of conversation in public?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:37:21

Where would you point people to like what are you doing in this area?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:37:24

And I guess what do you hope for the future?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:27

I think really utilize.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:30

Don't be afraid to kind of look if you don't have that support, whether that's in work, don't be afraid to look for that community out there.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:35

There is so much support out there.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:38

So many podcasts like yourself, so many community groups like ADHD Babes that I mentioned.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:43

Am I paying attention there?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:45

Two amazing women who do a lot of work looking at ADHD and autism with women.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:49

Ellie Middleton does a lot of work with her Mask project.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:52

There's so much community out there and support out there.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:37:56

There's so much different kind of ways to understand how to work with your brain.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:00

I always say that's so important as well.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:02

Like I've really tried to look at things that I'm always talking about when I go into organizations.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:06

The importance of understanding that to have more breaks during the day, that's okay, go for walks.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:11

Breaks should be encouraged.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:13

Compassionate kind of understanding of how people's different brains.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:17

It really is really helpful for me after meetings, once we've had a meeting to put something in writing afterwards.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:21

Just the key points.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:22

There's so.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:23

I think often people can think when it comes to kind of workplace adjustments or support that they have to be really expensive or time consuming.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:30

But really taking the time to kind of understand what people's challenges are and the better ways that they can work.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:36

Simple things can be put in place to make people thrive more.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:39

I always encourage taking the time to understand people are not.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:43

Not everyone has a language, we don't.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:44

Not everyone knows that they're a neurodivergent.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:47

But just I would always encourage you to kind of really understand, sit down with people.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:52

Start with a kind of strengths based approach to kind of understand what do you like to do?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:38:56

I have a form actually that I used to have when I was working with people and it had.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:00

It was literally a form, a personal preference form just to understand how people work in the workplace.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:04

So understanding the hours they like to work in the day.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:07

How do you like to receive feedback?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:09

What do you really enjoy doing?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:10

What do you struggle with a bit more?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:12

What can we put in place that's helpful?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:14

And I think that's often a good starting point to engage with people and I often would share mine with them as well to make them feel comfortable.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:20

So I think there's such simple ways in a working environment or a space to really understand the different ways that people work and what you can bring to a place.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:28

I always say that.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:28

Yeah, don't be afraid to look for support if you can't find it within the comfort of your friends or family.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:35

There's so much support out there.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:36

Community wise.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:38

Don't be afraid to kind of.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:41

We should all be promoting the importance of like workplace support.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:43

But don't be afraid to kind of think about different ways.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:46

And I will share that form that I have with people if they need it to start those conversations in work.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:50

And I always say, just be kind to yourself.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:53

I think people who neurodivergent were our own biggest critic.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:56

So like the compassion you show to others, try and show it to yourself.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:39:59

And that's why I always think getting a diagnosis is so helpful if you can get it.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:03

Because I think for a lot of women particularly as well, it just helps you to be kinder to yourself.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:08

I think when you kind of have a bit of a better understanding.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:11

I think having that understanding has helped me.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:13

You go through those phases.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:14

I often say you go through the phase of grief sometimes when you get it, there's anger for why it took so long.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:19

There's those, those elements of frustration.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:21

You're kind of grieving what could have happened or could have been.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:24

But I think for me, I've definitely.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:26

You definitely start moving to the phase sometimes of understanding more that this is how I do things.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:31

And this is like, it gives you a real, often better understanding and compassion for yourself.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:36

So I would say that, yeah, be kind to yourself.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:40:40

Yeah, I love that.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:40:41

And what you just said then, that personal preference form, that sounds amazing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:40:45

I mean, we should all have that for all relationships.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:40:48

And you know, like, you start getting out with someone new, be like, here's my personal preference.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:40:52

Yeah, make dating so much easier, wouldn't it?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:55

Yeah.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:40:56

Get an understanding of me from this perspective and how we can like bring these different ways of working and understanding each other.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:41:02

It's a good way.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:41:03

Totally those conversations.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:05

Yeah.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:06

Because sometimes it can feel so daunting and overwhelming to kind of say, actually I do need a walk every hour, or I do like to sit by the window or that type of lighting really hurts my eyes.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:17

Like, it's really hard to say that without feeling.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:21

And especially if we've gone through ridicule before or dismissal or invalidation or any of those things will be just so terrifying.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:29

But if a work in the workplace and they could just turn around and say, oh, this is like totally normal and it's just out there and it's just done and it's right at the beginning and the Difficult, difficult conversation's been had.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:40

Are you able to share.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:41:42

Yes.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:41:42

An example of that?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:41:43

I'll happily send that over to you.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:41:45

Yeah, because I think, yeah, I think it's so important to have that, like you said, that they can feel so much pressure with somebody coming into a new space.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:41:51

And I would say I think the honest should be on the environment to understand, to share your kind of needs but also understand theirs.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:41:58

And I think it's always a good way to kind of start that conversation.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:42:01

If people don't really know what support they need, it's a good way to help people think about that because you can come in and you've often just survived in spaces that you don't even know what support you need.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:42:10

So it can really help people frame that thinking and then if more support is needed from that conversation, fine.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:42:15

But I think, yeah, it's a good support, support starting point and it can just be a simple conversation to really understand and also make that person feel comfortable because you're sharing kind of how you work as well.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:26

Amazing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:27

Abigail, thank you so, so much.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:29

I'm going to put all your details in the show notes, including the TED Talk, which was just amazing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:33

We're going to put that form in and I guess what, you know, people are listening to this conversation and kind of thinking, I would love to be able to connect with Abigail, like, what services do you do?

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:43

Like what's kind of on your agenda, you know, for the next, next year or so?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:42:46

Yes.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:42:46

So I'm currently working on getting my website done and every time I think I'm like, yeah, that's the ADHD me.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:42:51

I need to just, I think, need to get out there because I think sometimes you want something perfect, don't you?

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:42:55

And I'm like, no, I just need to get it out there so people have all my information.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:42:59

A landing page.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:43:00

Exactly.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:00

A landing page.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:01

To start off at the moment I've been doing a lot of work with organizations.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:05

I was recently working with Crisis, doing some work as well, recently with a range of different organizations, kind of just getting them to understand how to create more newer inclusive working environments and really thinking about that intersectionality aspect.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:18

So I'm doing just a bit of that at the moment.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:20

And yeah, I can share details where people can access me.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:23

A lot of have a blog that I have on LinkedIn as well.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:26

So that's kind of the main things.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:27

It's basically been kind of working with organizations, getting them how to understand how to create more neuro inclusive working environments.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:33

Also been working with ADHD babes as well.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:43:36

Thinking about that kind of community outreach and what work we can do to engage communities as well.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:43:40

Amazing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:43:41

Well, it's all honestly so needed and so important and I hope we hear more voices like yours coming out there and helping more people understand themselves and get that support and the validation and the connection and all of that, because there's a lot more to do.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:43:57

Abigail, thank you so much.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:43:58

It's been amazing.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:43:59

I've loved this conversation.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:44:01

Thanks so much for having me, Kate.

Abigail Adjaye Jones: 00:44:02

I really enjoyed it.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:06

If you've enjoyed today's episode, I invite you to check out my brand new subscription podcast called the Toolkit.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:12

Now this is where I'm going to be opening up my entire library.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:16

My vault of information from over the years, my workshops, webinars and courses, my conversations with experts about hormones, nutrition, lifestyle and bringing brand new up to date content from global experts.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:31

This is going to be an amazing resource for you to support you and guide you even more on more niche topics and conversations so you can really thrive and learn to live your best life with adhd.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:42

I'm so excited about this.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:44

Please just check out it's the Toolkit on Apple Podcast.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:48

You get a free trial.

Kate Moore Youssef: 00:44:49

Really hope to see you there.